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The failure (our failure) to make the ideals and ideas of freedom in the digital age accessible and present in politics is a disaster. FOSS ideas, open culture

The failure (our failure) to make the ideals and ideas of freedom in the digital age accessible and present in politics is a disaster. FOSS ideas, open culture ideas. What the world wide web actual is... It's not even that they disagree, they aren't even aware. We spent decades fiddling arguments with one another while events just took their course. Politicians don't understand or care about any of these ideas. The public doesn't either. When "something must be done" about this or that... because digital culture progresses to some point, the deep well of ideas that dominated web culture have zero impact. Ultimately, the encryption argument is being had between spooks and tech monopolies. Politicians are bystanders. There is no "freedom of speech" equivalent, no idea of the current technological age to guide them. No flag for the public to rally to. The right to privacy is great, but we can't just keep arguing by analogy. We need modern age thinking to define this for modern circumstances.

swiley 6y ago
We have email with autocrypt to rally to. Abandon the smart phone crap and anything with a large organization attached to it.
- fsflover 6y ago
  > Abandon the smart phone crap https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5
  - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
    More, Repairable smartphones, with various choices for operating systems from brands which doesn't seem to exhibit hypocrisy when it comes their values - https://www.fairphone.com/en/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/ https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ https://www.shiftphones.com/en/ https://www.shiftphones.com/en/ https://myteracube.com/ https://myteracube.com/ But when the parent said, > Abandon the smart phone crap It may not just be about open hardware/OS/Apps for smartphone but the hold the carrier has on the customer and therein privacy issues. This is a hard problem to solve because cellular services are oligopolies or even monopolies and amplified by lack of open modem/radio hardware. So ditching smartphones for a portable computer might be even a good option[1]. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25917178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25917178
    - fsflover 6y ago
      > from brands which doesn't seem to exhibit hypocrisy when it comes their values This is a strong accusation. Which of those brands are recommended by the FSF [0]? Which of them are actually trying to change the industry with their investments (promoting freedom/privacy) [1]? Which of them are fighting against planned obsolescence by providing lifetime updates [2]? Given all that I am not sure who is a hypocrite. > So ditching smartphones for a portable computer might be even a good option Librem 5 is a portable computer [3]. [0] https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/v11/ https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/v11/ [1] https://puri.sm/posts/breaking-ground/ https://puri.sm/posts/breaking-ground/ [2] https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#311-how-can-purism-provide-lifetime-software-updates-for-the-librem-5 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque... [3] https://puri.sm/posts/mobile-desktop-convergence/ https://puri.sm/posts/mobile-desktop-convergence/
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
        My comment wasn't targeted at Purism, I hoped a break after 'More,' would have helped make that point but I should have used better grammar. Apart from that I stand by what I said.
        fsflover 6y ago
        Then whom did you accuse of hypocrisy and why?
        _underfl0w_ 6y ago
        Not OP, but common sense is telling me the answer you seek is "other companies not in the list by OP"
    - swiley 6y ago
      I have a pinephone. Once the modem manager stuff gets up streamed (so MMS works) and the distros make it easier to update the modem firmware (or they start shipping with updated firmware from the factory) these will probably be in the "just turn it on and use it" state. There's been an insane degree of improvement in the software over the past 6 months.
- dalbasal 6y ago
  This is kind of what I mean. This is not a flag to rally behind. Maybe for nerds, not for our society. Even then it isn't a flag. It's a refuge. This is what I mean by "failure" to get into political consciousness and politicians heads... If you want to be free you need the freedom of others. Hiding in technical bastions is like praying in secret. Freedom of religion it isn't, even if it's better than nothing.
- dane-pgp 6y ago
  > We have email with autocrypt to rally to. For those unfamiliar: https://autocrypt.org/ https://autocrypt.org/ There are plans to add support for it to Tutanota[0], although ironically that blog post was written over a year ago and their FAQ still says that they don't even support interoperable PGP.[1] When ProtonMail were asked two years ago about supporting Autocrypt, their response was quite negative but also vague[2], and there doesn't seem to have been much progress since.[3] [0] https://tutanota.com/blog/posts/email-encryption/ https://tutanota.com/blog/posts/email-encryption/ [1] https://tutanota.com/faq/#pgp https://tutanota.com/faq/#pgp [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/8dqk5n/protonmail_should_implement_autocrypt/dxpjpbb/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/8dqk5n/protonma... [3] https://github.com/ProtonMail/WebClient/issues/120 https://github.com/ProtonMail/WebClient/issues/120
  - blindm 6y ago
    Baking in automatic crypto to email is a lost cause, since email is not as straight-forward as let's say Signal, which only succeeds because it exists in a monoculture (iOS/Android). Email operates on 100s of different clients (and operating systems), and you get people replying-to-all by mistake, and fat-fingering sensitive data to random recipients (which is possible in Signal, but not nearly as bad as e-mail where e-mail can exist in any hostile environment it wants, unlike Signal which has a user which is more careful about what he/she sends).
    - dane-pgp 6y ago
      > e-mail can exist in any hostile environment it wants, unlike Signal which has a user which is more careful Could you explain why Signal users are more careful than email users? Aren't all Signal users also email users? I suppose the reverse isn't true, and there are machines that send people transactional emails (e.g. receipts for online purchases) which it would be nice to secure with PGP. The real problem with securing email, from my perspective, is the difficulty of creating a UX which accurately and intuitively conveys to the user whether the message they are sending is secure (and what "secure" means). By using a separate app which never sends plaintext, that's basically a non-problem.
- 6ak74rfy 6y ago
  I am hearing about Autocrypt for the first time. Mind filling me in on how it is different from PGP encryption?
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  What you propose is just burying your head in the sand and waiting for the storm. This isn't about "large organizations" this is about the tendency for governments to sacrifice freedom for greed, control, and power. It doesn't matter if the government is a progressive European government or a Authoritarian Chinese government. They all want to more transparency into what citizens are up to "for their own good". That's what we need to fight.
e77ddudyd 6y ago
I'm cynical, I think it's an impossible battle. The value being left on the table has grown year over year and that doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon. We're rapidly approaching a point where crime happens because you're either too poor for the tech or you wanted it to happen, medicine is waking up to the potential of constant biometric collection/analysis, and people are being showered in free and useful software because the the first time in history they're valuable just for existing. To contrast this, digital privacy makes everything a bit harder while protecting people from parties that just want to seek them things they'll enjoy and state actors who aren't really compelled by much more than the honor system to respect instructions to change their ways. Eventually the mountain of potential is going to simply eclipse the perceived benefits.

swiley 6y ago

We have email with autocrypt to rally to. Abandon the smart phone crap and anything with a large organization attached to it.

fsflover 6y ago
> Abandon the smart phone crap https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5
- Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
  More, Repairable smartphones, with various choices for operating systems from brands which doesn't seem to exhibit hypocrisy when it comes their values - https://www.fairphone.com/en/ https://www.fairphone.com/en/ https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/ https://www.shiftphones.com/en/ https://www.shiftphones.com/en/ https://myteracube.com/ https://myteracube.com/ But when the parent said, > Abandon the smart phone crap It may not just be about open hardware/OS/Apps for smartphone but the hold the carrier has on the customer and therein privacy issues. This is a hard problem to solve because cellular services are oligopolies or even monopolies and amplified by lack of open modem/radio hardware. So ditching smartphones for a portable computer might be even a good option[1]. [1]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25917178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25917178
  - fsflover 6y ago
    > from brands which doesn't seem to exhibit hypocrisy when it comes their values This is a strong accusation. Which of those brands are recommended by the FSF [0]? Which of them are actually trying to change the industry with their investments (promoting freedom/privacy) [1]? Which of them are fighting against planned obsolescence by providing lifetime updates [2]? Given all that I am not sure who is a hypocrite. > So ditching smartphones for a portable computer might be even a good option Librem 5 is a portable computer [3]. [0] https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/v11/ https://www.fsf.org/givingguide/v11/ [1] https://puri.sm/posts/breaking-ground/ https://puri.sm/posts/breaking-ground/ [2] https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Frequently-Asked-Questions#311-how-can-purism-provide-lifetime-software-updates-for-the-librem-5 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/community-wiki/-/wikis/Freque... [3] https://puri.sm/posts/mobile-desktop-convergence/ https://puri.sm/posts/mobile-desktop-convergence/
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Abishek_Muthian 6y ago
      My comment wasn't targeted at Purism, I hoped a break after 'More,' would have helped make that point but I should have used better grammar. Apart from that I stand by what I said.
      - fsflover 6y ago
        Then whom did you accuse of hypocrisy and why?
        _underfl0w_ 6y ago
        Not OP, but common sense is telling me the answer you seek is "other companies not in the list by OP"
  - swiley 6y ago
    I have a pinephone. Once the modem manager stuff gets up streamed (so MMS works) and the distros make it easier to update the modem firmware (or they start shipping with updated firmware from the factory) these will probably be in the "just turn it on and use it" state. There's been an insane degree of improvement in the software over the past 6 months.
dalbasal 6y ago
This is kind of what I mean. This is not a flag to rally behind. Maybe for nerds, not for our society. Even then it isn't a flag. It's a refuge. This is what I mean by "failure" to get into political consciousness and politicians heads... If you want to be free you need the freedom of others. Hiding in technical bastions is like praying in secret. Freedom of religion it isn't, even if it's better than nothing.
dane-pgp 6y ago
> We have email with autocrypt to rally to. For those unfamiliar: https://autocrypt.org/ https://autocrypt.org/ There are plans to add support for it to Tutanota[0], although ironically that blog post was written over a year ago and their FAQ still says that they don't even support interoperable PGP.[1] When ProtonMail were asked two years ago about supporting Autocrypt, their response was quite negative but also vague[2], and there doesn't seem to have been much progress since.[3] [0] https://tutanota.com/blog/posts/email-encryption/ https://tutanota.com/blog/posts/email-encryption/ [1] https://tutanota.com/faq/#pgp https://tutanota.com/faq/#pgp [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/8dqk5n/protonmail_should_implement_autocrypt/dxpjpbb/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/8dqk5n/protonma... [3] https://github.com/ProtonMail/WebClient/issues/120 https://github.com/ProtonMail/WebClient/issues/120
- blindm 6y ago
  Baking in automatic crypto to email is a lost cause, since email is not as straight-forward as let's say Signal, which only succeeds because it exists in a monoculture (iOS/Android). Email operates on 100s of different clients (and operating systems), and you get people replying-to-all by mistake, and fat-fingering sensitive data to random recipients (which is possible in Signal, but not nearly as bad as e-mail where e-mail can exist in any hostile environment it wants, unlike Signal which has a user which is more careful about what he/she sends).
  - dane-pgp 6y ago
    > e-mail can exist in any hostile environment it wants, unlike Signal which has a user which is more careful Could you explain why Signal users are more careful than email users? Aren't all Signal users also email users? I suppose the reverse isn't true, and there are machines that send people transactional emails (e.g. receipts for online purchases) which it would be nice to secure with PGP. The real problem with securing email, from my perspective, is the difficulty of creating a UX which accurately and intuitively conveys to the user whether the message they are sending is secure (and what "secure" means). By using a separate app which never sends plaintext, that's basically a non-problem.
6ak74rfy 6y ago
I am hearing about Autocrypt for the first time. Mind filling me in on how it is different from PGP encryption?
stjohnswarts 6y ago
What you propose is just burying your head in the sand and waiting for the storm. This isn't about "large organizations" this is about the tendency for governments to sacrifice freedom for greed, control, and power. It doesn't matter if the government is a progressive European government or a Authoritarian Chinese government. They all want to more transparency into what citizens are up to "for their own good". That's what we need to fight.

e77ddudyd 6y ago

I'm cynical, I think it's an impossible battle. The value being left on the table has grown year over year and that doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon. We're rapidly approaching a point where crime happens because you're either too poor for the tech or you wanted it to happen, medicine is waking up to the potential of constant biometric collection/analysis, and people are being showered in free and useful software because the the first time in history they're valuable just for existing. To contrast this, digital privacy makes everything a bit harder while protecting people from parties that just want to seek them things they'll enjoy and state actors who aren't really compelled by much more than the honor system to respect instructions to change their ways. Eventually the mountain of potential is going to simply eclipse the perceived benefits.