4 ms·

As someone who's new to this world of stock trading but now understands what a "short" is, could you elaborate on this? How is it possible for a stock to be 12

by oars 6y ago

As someone who's new to this world of stock trading but now understands what a "short" is, could you elaborate on this? How is it possible for a stock to be 125% over shorted? What does this mean?

xenocratus 6y ago
The broker who is actually holding your stock can lend them out and you can indeed end up buying your own stocks more than once. You can explicitly request the broker to not do it and, in this kind of situation where 125% of the stock is shorted and some *need* to buy it... well :) Have a read from Matt Levine's "Infinite Game" from yesterday: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-01-26/will-wallstreetbets-face-sec-scrutiny-after-gamestop-rally https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-01-26/will-w... To quote: > Falcone owned some bonds of a company called MAAX Holdings Inc. “After hearing rumors that a Wall Street financial services firm was shorting the MAAX bonds and also encouraging its customers to do the same, Falcone decided to seek revenge.” So he bought all the MAAX bonds. Then he bought more: Short sellers would borrow MAAX bonds (presumably from him), and then sell them to him, so that he ended up with “22 million more bonds than MAAX had ever issued.” Then he stopped lending them out, forcing the short sellers to buy bonds to cover their shorts. But there were no bonds to be bought, since he owned them all (and more). > Falcone stated that the Wall Street firm should just keep bidding for the bonds. Falcone acknowledged that the Wall Street firm would suffer some losses doing so, but told the senior officer and the others that sometimes you are just on the wrong side of a trade.
akgoel 6y ago
If you short, you are borrowing a stock from Alice, and selling it to Bob, hoping to buy it back later from Bob at a lower price. But, you can then borrow again from Bob and sell to Charles. Ad infinitum.
317070 6y ago
There is 1 company, that company has 1 stock. Alice is the shorter and expects the stock to drop. * How shorting works normally: Alice thinks the price will lower this week. On Monday, Alice borrows a stock from Bob. She sells that stock immediately on Monday. On Friday at the end of that week, she buys a stock again and hands it back to Bob, plus a small fee for his troubles. If the stock price went down during the week, you can see that Alice made a profit. * What happened for Gamestop: Melvin thinks the price will lower this year. Melvin borrows a stock from Rudy. Melvin sells that stock, and unbeknown to him he sells it back to Rudy. Melvin borrows another stock from Rudy which unbeknown to him he sells again to Rudy. While there exists only 1 stock, Rudy now has 3 stocks of which he borrowed 2 to Melvin. Melvin owes Rudy 200% of all available stock, which he needs to hand back at the end of the year. * What is the short squeeze Rudy/Reddit is currently doing on Melvin Capital? Well, in reality, Melvin Capital has 1.5 stocks borrowed for every stock in existence (I'm not sure how much of the total stock was actually liquid, so I'm not sure how many rounds Melvin needs to go through to cover all their shorts). Today it is the end of the year. Melvin needs to hand Rudy back the stock. However, the only person he could buy it from, is Rudy himself. Now Rudy is free to set an arbitrary price for his stock AND meanwhile buy up all other available stock at ridiculous prices. The only stock Melvin can buy, is from Rudy, or from other people at at least Rudy's price point. And Melvin needs to buy that stock to then hand it back to Rudy, after which Rudy can sell it yet again at an even higher price point for Melvin to hand it back again. Rudy makes a lot of profit, by squeezing out Melvin after making the market illiquid and overpriced. Effectively, the game is such that the entire capital of Melvin is now for Rudy. Melvin must buy something from Rudy, no matter how high Rudy sets his price. An alternative is for Melvin to borrow another stock from Rudy, handing it back to cover for the last borrow. However, this way Melvin is only digging himself into an even deeper hole stacking up fees (the fee Melvin pays for Rudy's troubles is currently at a 130% interest rate). * What is on the line? Melvin Capital is 3 billion. The question is how much Reddit is Rudy, how much stock Reddit managed to control. If Reddit manages the squeeze, the squeezers will basically share among each other 3 billion. If Reddit does not manage, a lot of people will hold a lot of Gamestop stock at probably way lower prices than they bought. Melvin Capital appears to have received a capital injection of 3 billion from Citadel today, doubling the stakes in an all or nothing with Reddit. So wallstreetbets is now standing to either gain 6 billion or losing a lot of money. Which sounds big to us, but is probably just another Wednesday for wallstreetbets...
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  CNBC reported that Melvin Capital closed on their GameStop position [1]. So it's basically over, right? Or is there more to it? [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/hedge-fund-targeted-by-reddit-board-melvin-capital-closed-out-of-gamestop-short-position-tuesday.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/hedge-fund-targeted-by-reddi...
  - djbebs 6y ago
    There is no evidence that is true, and short interest is still above 130% so it sounds like a lie to discourage additional buying of gme
    - echelon 6y ago
      Where do you determine short interest figures for a stock? Are they accurate to the hour? My impression was that this information wasn't reported at a regular cadence, but I have no idea.
      - tekknik 6y ago
        Buy a dataset, get it from your broker or use a bloomberg terminal. The info available to most retail traders in their stock app of choice (and certainly true for RH) is pretty abysmal
        nrmitchi 6y ago
        I suspect that RH drastically limiting the information available to their users is all designed to limit analysis and make people feel more confident that they fully understand everything they are doing. People trade more when they feel more confident.
  - 317070 6y ago
    So, from what I understand (I did not do the maths myself), despite Gamestop being the most traded stock right now, not enough has moved in the premarket for Melvin Capital to actually close their position when they claimed they did. It seems a very dubious claim.

by oars 6y ago

As someone who's new to this world of stock trading but now understands what a "short" is, could you elaborate on this? How is it possible for a stock to be 125% over shorted? What does this mean?

xenocratus 6y ago

The broker who is actually holding your stock can lend them out and you can indeed end up buying your own stocks more than once. You can explicitly request the broker to not do it and, in this kind of situation where 125% of the stock is shorted and some *need* to buy it... well :) Have a read from Matt Levine's "Infinite Game" from yesterday: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-01-26/will-wallstreetbets-face-sec-scrutiny-after-gamestop-rally https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-01-26/will-w... To quote: > Falcone owned some bonds of a company called MAAX Holdings Inc. “After hearing rumors that a Wall Street financial services firm was shorting the MAAX bonds and also encouraging its customers to do the same, Falcone decided to seek revenge.” So he bought all the MAAX bonds. Then he bought more: Short sellers would borrow MAAX bonds (presumably from him), and then sell them to him, so that he ended up with “22 million more bonds than MAAX had ever issued.” Then he stopped lending them out, forcing the short sellers to buy bonds to cover their shorts. But there were no bonds to be bought, since he owned them all (and more). > Falcone stated that the Wall Street firm should just keep bidding for the bonds. Falcone acknowledged that the Wall Street firm would suffer some losses doing so, but told the senior officer and the others that sometimes you are just on the wrong side of a trade.

akgoel 6y ago

If you short, you are borrowing a stock from Alice, and selling it to Bob, hoping to buy it back later from Bob at a lower price. But, you can then borrow again from Bob and sell to Charles. Ad infinitum.

317070 6y ago

There is 1 company, that company has 1 stock. Alice is the shorter and expects the stock to drop. * How shorting works normally: Alice thinks the price will lower this week. On Monday, Alice borrows a stock from Bob. She sells that stock immediately on Monday. On Friday at the end of that week, she buys a stock again and hands it back to Bob, plus a small fee for his troubles. If the stock price went down during the week, you can see that Alice made a profit. * What happened for Gamestop: Melvin thinks the price will lower this year. Melvin borrows a stock from Rudy. Melvin sells that stock, and unbeknown to him he sells it back to Rudy. Melvin borrows another stock from Rudy which unbeknown to him he sells again to Rudy. While there exists only 1 stock, Rudy now has 3 stocks of which he borrowed 2 to Melvin. Melvin owes Rudy 200% of all available stock, which he needs to hand back at the end of the year. * What is the short squeeze Rudy/Reddit is currently doing on Melvin Capital? Well, in reality, Melvin Capital has 1.5 stocks borrowed for every stock in existence (I'm not sure how much of the total stock was actually liquid, so I'm not sure how many rounds Melvin needs to go through to cover all their shorts). Today it is the end of the year. Melvin needs to hand Rudy back the stock. However, the only person he could buy it from, is Rudy himself. Now Rudy is free to set an arbitrary price for his stock AND meanwhile buy up all other available stock at ridiculous prices. The only stock Melvin can buy, is from Rudy, or from other people at at least Rudy's price point. And Melvin needs to buy that stock to then hand it back to Rudy, after which Rudy can sell it yet again at an even higher price point for Melvin to hand it back again. Rudy makes a lot of profit, by squeezing out Melvin after making the market illiquid and overpriced. Effectively, the game is such that the entire capital of Melvin is now for Rudy. Melvin must buy something from Rudy, no matter how high Rudy sets his price. An alternative is for Melvin to borrow another stock from Rudy, handing it back to cover for the last borrow. However, this way Melvin is only digging himself into an even deeper hole stacking up fees (the fee Melvin pays for Rudy's troubles is currently at a 130% interest rate). * What is on the line? Melvin Capital is 3 billion. The question is how much Reddit is Rudy, how much stock Reddit managed to control. If Reddit manages the squeeze, the squeezers will basically share among each other 3 billion. If Reddit does not manage, a lot of people will hold a lot of Gamestop stock at probably way lower prices than they bought. Melvin Capital appears to have received a capital injection of 3 billion from Citadel today, doubling the stakes in an all or nothing with Reddit. So wallstreetbets is now standing to either gain 6 billion or losing a lot of money. Which sounds big to us, but is probably just another Wednesday for wallstreetbets...

jakelazaroff 6y ago
CNBC reported that Melvin Capital closed on their GameStop position [1]. So it's basically over, right? Or is there more to it? [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/hedge-fund-targeted-by-reddit-board-melvin-capital-closed-out-of-gamestop-short-position-tuesday.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/hedge-fund-targeted-by-reddi...
- djbebs 6y ago
  There is no evidence that is true, and short interest is still above 130% so it sounds like a lie to discourage additional buying of gme
  - echelon 6y ago
    Where do you determine short interest figures for a stock? Are they accurate to the hour? My impression was that this information wasn't reported at a regular cadence, but I have no idea.
    - tekknik 6y ago
      Buy a dataset, get it from your broker or use a bloomberg terminal. The info available to most retail traders in their stock app of choice (and certainly true for RH) is pretty abysmal
      - nrmitchi 6y ago
        I suspect that RH drastically limiting the information available to their users is all designed to limit analysis and make people feel more confident that they fully understand everything they are doing. People trade more when they feel more confident.
- 317070 6y ago
  So, from what I understand (I did not do the maths myself), despite Gamestop being the most traded stock right now, not enough has moved in the premarket for Melvin Capital to actually close their position when they claimed they did. It seems a very dubious claim.