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It's ridiculously wasteful to force every carmaker to build their own charging stations. Here regulators may have to step in to force them to find a standard an

It's ridiculously wasteful to force every carmaker to build their own charging stations. Here regulators may have to step in to force them to find a standard and a charging market.

ssheth 6y ago
There is an "overarching" standard now .. CCS and a couple of older standards .. J1772 and ChaDeMo .. but when Tesla was getting started making chargers, there was no critical mass around any standards so they ended up creating their own.
- worldsayshi 6y ago
  Are they sharing that standard or putting up obstacles around it?
  - djrogers 6y ago
    https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you
- labcomputer 6y ago
  Not only was there no critical mass... CCS network didn't even exist until after Tesla had already deployed half a dozen Superchargers in California. And most of the CCS stations deployed before about 2017/2018 were the 50kW variety (in comparison to the 120kW Superchargers of the time).
- Robotbeat 6y ago
  Also, the "Tesla" standard is objectively better in nearly every way. It sucks we don't all just use that for all EVs.
Kranar 6y ago
A charging station isn't like a full blown gas station with safety critical infrastructure and operations staffing it. A charging station is mostly a parking lot space with some electronics, a cable and some signage featuring a company logo. The amount of "waste" amounts the the plastic used to display said logo and some rubber and copper. The actual electricity itself and the infrastructure used to deliver that electricity is already standardized and shared among not only all electric car companies, but everyone in the area period.
- tenacious_tuna 6y ago
  There could be waste in terms of duplicated effort. If Ford has charging stations that cover, e.g., the Rockies very well, it'd be "wasteful" to force Tesla to have to build out an identical network to cover the same region. (Where "force" is accomplished by incompatible cables, or communication changes, or some other issue.) If companies can share infrastructure, then they all will benefit from each other improving their own networks. Ford adding stations that can be used by other EVs will further improve the quality of life for all EVs.
  - Kranar 6y ago
    They do share infrastructure, the actual infrastructure needed to setup a charging station in the Rockies isn't in the signage and some fairly basic electronic components, it's in how you get the electricity to the Rockies. That will be shared by all car companies and isn't something the car companies themselves manage. That said, I think that in many cases they should share space. For example on a crowded downtown street, there should be standardized charging stations that can accommodate multiple types of cars. It would be annoying to have one parking spot for Tesla, another for GM, another for Ford. But that's not a question of waste or resourcefulness and I don't think that needs a government to step in to regulate either. Tesla's, along with pretty much all electric cars, support standardized charging as a matter of convenience to the user.
oneplane 6y ago
It's also ridiculous that some private company has to stamp out a good charging setup because nobody else will, but then has to let others use it. Granted, it would be nice if everyone would play together, but they didn't and they don't. Some heavy-handed top-down inter-organisational group with top-down design-by-committee ideas is going to be a shitshow too, so now the question becomes: what IS a good solution going to look like?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- tenpies 6y ago
  Why is it ridiculous? The government didn't set up petrol stations - they were always private everywhere on the planet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filling_station#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filling_station#History The entire EV market is already propped by governments and this has taken us to a place of extremely heavy, extremely battery-heavy, performance-oriented vehicles. That is the complete opposite of what an EV vehicle that is good for the environment would be. We should not be incentivizing this further by encouraging government to now subsidize a charging network.
- caf 6y ago
  A good solution probably looks like: Consortiums of EV-selling manufacturers form to build charging networks for that consortium's cars. Eventually cross-usage deals or mergers happen between networks of similar size and usage, until you get to the any-car any-network happy place in about 20 years.
fblp 6y ago
Suggested improvement: To be eligible for government electric car subsidies the car maker should meet certain standards for their chargers and charging stations that enable interoperability and a more competitive market.
- smileysteve 6y ago
  This timing works well as regulatory capture as Tesla has used up their us subsidies
nickik 6y ago
First of all, nobody is forcing anybody. Those manufactures that want to use a standard are free to use one. This is intact what happened, the waste majority is standardized and that mostly without regulation. Market forces are driving standardization. Tesla however is special because they have in incredibly dominate position in the market and they don't have to relay on 3rd parties creating charging stations. They can offer their costumers a premium experience and support their own growth. Eventually once charging is more universally available Tesla can simply expand to allow others to charge there and make a lot of money. Tesla has invested huge amount of money and this is their reward. Not sure why regulation needs to come in and force everybody to do things. Specially when early on a lot of things were not very clear. Also, government regulation defined API standards for payments are usually terrible.
- worldsayshi 6y ago
  > Eventually once charging is more universally available What if Tesla ends up with more or less a monopoly? > Tesla can simply expand to allow others to charge there and make a lot of money. But will they? I agree that it's fair that Tesla gets return on their investment. But if we end up with a situation where infrastructure is disjointed or where it's infeasible for anyone else to launch any competetition then Tesla have gained a market position that might be "fair" to them but unfair to everyone else.
  - znkynz 6y ago
    Can't comprehend how your sensible, rational post has been downvoted.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > What if Tesla ends up with more or less a monopoly? Tesla has "Open Sourced" their designs. > But will they? I don't know if Tesla will allow others to use their supercharger network, but anyone can use their designs for building a charging station for Teslas.
  - nickik 6y ago
    But this is total fantasy argument. Tesla will not have a monopoly. Why should they? Nothing is stopping other people from creating charging stations. Certainty not Tesla. > But will they? Yes, eventually it will be a financial make sense, but that is to 5-10 years away. > But if we end up with a situation where infrastructure is disjointed or where it's infeasible for anyone else to launch any competetition then Tesla have gained a market position that might be "fair" to them but unfair to everyone else. But this isn't the case. And will not be the case. So I don't get why you are making that argument.
908B64B197 6y ago
Just like when the EU tried to legislate micro-usb everywhere.
ogre_codes 6y ago
Tesla has said anyone is welcome to use their charging technology. They did this 7 years ago, before any of these other networks were built out. https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you
- paxys 6y ago
  Sharing technology itself is nowhere close to enough. The end game will have to be some kind of forced infrastructure sharing agreements.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    > The end game will have to be some kind of forced infrastructure sharing agreements. So Tesla spend billions of their own money building out infrastructure when the competition was literally laughing at them... and now that it's paid off and EVs are starting to go mainstream we should force them to share that infra with everyone else? That's a giant bullshit sandwich right there.
    - paxys 6y ago
      Might suck for them initially, but eventually real competition in the space is good for everyone, including Tesla. Their honeymoon period isn't going to last forever. And with the amount of government subsidy they have already received, they should be the last ones complaining about regulation.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        > And with the amount of government subsidy they have already received, they should be the last ones complaining about regulation. You mean the same subsidies which currently give Tesla's GM-come-lately competitors a $10k pricing advantage on new car purchases? Maybe that's the solution. Every time a competing car is sold, Tesla gets the subsidy instead of the maker. Then Tesla can use it to continue building out the supercharger network which everyone benefits from. GM, Ford, VW, Toyota... these are multi-billion dollar companies, several of which have received massive subsidies from the US government themselves. Forcing Tesla to subsidize their myopic competitors as sort of perverted corporate tort in the US is crap.

It's ridiculously wasteful to force every carmaker to build their own charging stations. Here regulators may have to step in to force them to find a standard and a charging market.

ssheth 6y ago

There is an "overarching" standard now .. CCS and a couple of older standards .. J1772 and ChaDeMo .. but when Tesla was getting started making chargers, there was no critical mass around any standards so they ended up creating their own.

worldsayshi 6y ago
Are they sharing that standard or putting up obstacles around it?
- djrogers 6y ago
  https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you
labcomputer 6y ago
Not only was there no critical mass... CCS network didn't even exist until after Tesla had already deployed half a dozen Superchargers in California. And most of the CCS stations deployed before about 2017/2018 were the 50kW variety (in comparison to the 120kW Superchargers of the time).
Robotbeat 6y ago
Also, the "Tesla" standard is objectively better in nearly every way. It sucks we don't all just use that for all EVs.

Kranar 6y ago

A charging station isn't like a full blown gas station with safety critical infrastructure and operations staffing it. A charging station is mostly a parking lot space with some electronics, a cable and some signage featuring a company logo. The amount of "waste" amounts the the plastic used to display said logo and some rubber and copper. The actual electricity itself and the infrastructure used to deliver that electricity is already standardized and shared among not only all electric car companies, but everyone in the area period.

tenacious_tuna 6y ago
There could be waste in terms of duplicated effort. If Ford has charging stations that cover, e.g., the Rockies very well, it'd be "wasteful" to force Tesla to have to build out an identical network to cover the same region. (Where "force" is accomplished by incompatible cables, or communication changes, or some other issue.) If companies can share infrastructure, then they all will benefit from each other improving their own networks. Ford adding stations that can be used by other EVs will further improve the quality of life for all EVs.
- Kranar 6y ago
  They do share infrastructure, the actual infrastructure needed to setup a charging station in the Rockies isn't in the signage and some fairly basic electronic components, it's in how you get the electricity to the Rockies. That will be shared by all car companies and isn't something the car companies themselves manage. That said, I think that in many cases they should share space. For example on a crowded downtown street, there should be standardized charging stations that can accommodate multiple types of cars. It would be annoying to have one parking spot for Tesla, another for GM, another for Ford. But that's not a question of waste or resourcefulness and I don't think that needs a government to step in to regulate either. Tesla's, along with pretty much all electric cars, support standardized charging as a matter of convenience to the user.

oneplane 6y ago

It's also ridiculous that some private company has to stamp out a good charging setup because nobody else will, but then has to let others use it. Granted, it would be nice if everyone would play together, but they didn't and they don't. Some heavy-handed top-down inter-organisational group with top-down design-by-committee ideas is going to be a shitshow too, so now the question becomes: what IS a good solution going to look like?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
tenpies 6y ago
Why is it ridiculous? The government didn't set up petrol stations - they were always private everywhere on the planet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filling_station#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filling_station#History The entire EV market is already propped by governments and this has taken us to a place of extremely heavy, extremely battery-heavy, performance-oriented vehicles. That is the complete opposite of what an EV vehicle that is good for the environment would be. We should not be incentivizing this further by encouraging government to now subsidize a charging network.
caf 6y ago
A good solution probably looks like: Consortiums of EV-selling manufacturers form to build charging networks for that consortium's cars. Eventually cross-usage deals or mergers happen between networks of similar size and usage, until you get to the any-car any-network happy place in about 20 years.

fblp 6y ago

Suggested improvement: To be eligible for government electric car subsidies the car maker should meet certain standards for their chargers and charging stations that enable interoperability and a more competitive market.

smileysteve 6y ago
This timing works well as regulatory capture as Tesla has used up their us subsidies

nickik 6y ago

First of all, nobody is forcing anybody. Those manufactures that want to use a standard are free to use one. This is intact what happened, the waste majority is standardized and that mostly without regulation. Market forces are driving standardization. Tesla however is special because they have in incredibly dominate position in the market and they don't have to relay on 3rd parties creating charging stations. They can offer their costumers a premium experience and support their own growth. Eventually once charging is more universally available Tesla can simply expand to allow others to charge there and make a lot of money. Tesla has invested huge amount of money and this is their reward. Not sure why regulation needs to come in and force everybody to do things. Specially when early on a lot of things were not very clear. Also, government regulation defined API standards for payments are usually terrible.

worldsayshi 6y ago
> Eventually once charging is more universally available What if Tesla ends up with more or less a monopoly? > Tesla can simply expand to allow others to charge there and make a lot of money. But will they? I agree that it's fair that Tesla gets return on their investment. But if we end up with a situation where infrastructure is disjointed or where it's infeasible for anyone else to launch any competetition then Tesla have gained a market position that might be "fair" to them but unfair to everyone else.
- znkynz 6y ago
  Can't comprehend how your sensible, rational post has been downvoted.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > What if Tesla ends up with more or less a monopoly? Tesla has "Open Sourced" their designs. > But will they? I don't know if Tesla will allow others to use their supercharger network, but anyone can use their designs for building a charging station for Teslas.
- nickik 6y ago
  But this is total fantasy argument. Tesla will not have a monopoly. Why should they? Nothing is stopping other people from creating charging stations. Certainty not Tesla. > But will they? Yes, eventually it will be a financial make sense, but that is to 5-10 years away. > But if we end up with a situation where infrastructure is disjointed or where it's infeasible for anyone else to launch any competetition then Tesla have gained a market position that might be "fair" to them but unfair to everyone else. But this isn't the case. And will not be the case. So I don't get why you are making that argument.

908B64B197 6y ago

Just like when the EU tried to legislate micro-usb everywhere.

ogre_codes 6y ago

Tesla has said anyone is welcome to use their charging technology. They did this 7 years ago, before any of these other networks were built out. https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-our-patent-are-belong-you

paxys 6y ago
Sharing technology itself is nowhere close to enough. The end game will have to be some kind of forced infrastructure sharing agreements.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > The end game will have to be some kind of forced infrastructure sharing agreements. So Tesla spend billions of their own money building out infrastructure when the competition was literally laughing at them... and now that it's paid off and EVs are starting to go mainstream we should force them to share that infra with everyone else? That's a giant bullshit sandwich right there.
  - paxys 6y ago
    Might suck for them initially, but eventually real competition in the space is good for everyone, including Tesla. Their honeymoon period isn't going to last forever. And with the amount of government subsidy they have already received, they should be the last ones complaining about regulation.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      > And with the amount of government subsidy they have already received, they should be the last ones complaining about regulation. You mean the same subsidies which currently give Tesla's GM-come-lately competitors a $10k pricing advantage on new car purchases? Maybe that's the solution. Every time a competing car is sold, Tesla gets the subsidy instead of the maker. Then Tesla can use it to continue building out the supercharger network which everyone benefits from. GM, Ford, VW, Toyota... these are multi-billion dollar companies, several of which have received massive subsidies from the US government themselves. Forcing Tesla to subsidize their myopic competitors as sort of perverted corporate tort in the US is crap.