7 ms·

Speaking of real ergonomic and health in my humble opinion, the designs with Concave keywell (Kinesis/Dactyl) are the way to go. I have jumped on to Kinesis Adv

by nbzso 6y ago

Speaking of real ergonomic and health in my humble opinion, the designs with Concave keywell (Kinesis/Dactyl) are the way to go. I have jumped on to Kinesis Advantage 2 and all my wrist pain is no more.

avindroth 6y ago
I'd go all the way and also add dvorak (programmer's) to the mix. But if somebody goes out of the way to buy an ergonomic keyboard, they are probably fiddling around with keymaps, too.
- nbzso 6y ago
  Advantage have Brown/Red Cherry and SmartSet Programming Engine: Dual-Layer layouts with secondary actions embedded in the “Keypad” layer US Version: Windows/Mac/PC Switchable (extra keycaps included) International Versions: Extra Windows keycap included One-touch, onboard key remapping so you can customize the layout to suit your typing style and preferences Heavy-duty, on-the-fly macros up to 300 characters long. Choose from 9 playback speeds and add timing delays to ensure proper playback. Native Dvorak layout which can be customized independently of the default QWERTY layout. All settings are saved to the keyboard’s 4MB flash memory.
- andredz 6y ago
  I sometimes use http://programmer-dvorak.appspot.com/ http://programmer-dvorak.appspot.com/ to practice. The ergonomics of accentuation is inconvenient, but this probably solves the problem: https://github.com/N0rthw1nd/Latin-Dvorak https://github.com/N0rthw1nd/Latin-Dvorak
  - avindroth 6y ago
    I could never get my head around the numbers. I just have a custom layout where for 1,2,3,9,0 they are without shift, and for 4,5,6,7,8 they are with shift. So for me shift 1 is &, but shift 4 is 4. It actually works really well.
nunez 6y ago
I tried using a Kinesis Freestyle Bluetooth with the tents and pads; it was very comfortable but I still encountered wrist pain because of the keys being mushy. I’m going to try the mechanical version; I am hoping for better results
pabloarteel 6y ago
Around that topic of ergonomic tools, I've been wanting to try a vertical mouse. As a designer, my right hand is over the mouse a lot of the time. I have a chronic pain on my right wirst, although, I not certain of the cause. Anyone her has experience with this?
- ahelwer 6y ago
  Mice, as in things you drag across a desk surface, are a complete dead end ergonomically. Trackballs are the answer. I like the Kensington vertical trackball. The only thing that moves is your thumb. Those small precise wrist movements kill you.
  - yellowapple 6y ago
    Seconded. I'm partial to Logitech's MX Ergo; I feel like fully vertical is a bit of an overcorrection, whereas the Ergo lets my hand rest diagonally, which feels a fair bit more natural and comfortable. Bought one on a whim for work, and I've enjoyed it enough that I bought a second one when I switched jobs this year.
  - coryrc 6y ago
    I moved to a trackball, a large one. Made my wrist hurt after a ~week, so I went back to a regular mouse (which has never caused me pain) or, my favorite, using the trackpoint (but unless I want to shell out crazy money and wait a while can't get a split keyboard version, so it's only when using the machine away from my desk).
  - perlpimp 6y ago
    tbh magic mouse pad with three finger drag has transformed my interaction with computer and Cooler Master master keys M(that they don't make anymore) given me numpad and cursor keys and navigation/edit keys very close. It is like 1/2 more ergonomic this way.
- denimnerd42 6y ago
  Yeah I found the Evoluent to be perfect for me. I actually had to give up mousing with my right wrist as it got too badly damaged. So now I use my left hand with a vertical mouse. Was an interesting transition period. I think you will notice a loss of precision though. For example I could never play an FPS at my best with a vertical mouse. But for $80-100 definitely worth a try for your health.
srcreigh 6y ago
After ~1.5 years using emacs keybindings in IntelliJ, I couldn't code for more than 20 minutes without pain. I no longer have any extended pain due to: 1. Modal editing. I use the boon package for emacs, but basically vim 2. Sticky keys. Basically, I don't have to hold down any modifiers, I just press Ctrl then press N for example. Or two Ctrl to lock it, NNNNNN, then Ctrl to return to normal. On macs this is in the Accessibility app under Keyboard. It doesn't work so well with Shift + mouse scroll though. 3. Kinesis advantage 2 4. Dvorak I still sometimes get a bit of pinky pain since I shift and ctrl with my pinkies. With sticky keys, modal editing, and mechanical switches in the Advantage 2, it's not really a problem. I learned that the macbook keyboards aren't that bad if I use modal editing and sticky modifier keys. Also I need to be careful to avoid so-called "ulnar deviation" of my wrists. This means I lift my wrists, let my fingers hang down more, so I can keep the wrists neutral while hitting shift etc. I don't think Dvorak helps much, but I still like it. It was intentionally put together. I think it helped to learn Dvorak and the concave key well of Advantage 2 at the same time. I never learned qwerty on the Advantage 2 or Dvorak on macbook keyboard. I want to try the programmer's dvorak layout as well for lisp.
- __mharrison__ 6y ago
  This is similar to my setup. Similar to a Jedi building your own light saber, you should build (and customize fw) for your keyboard :) When I built my ergodox, I put the Norman layout on it. I use emacs bindings almost everywhere, so control is under a thumb. (I'm still tweaking and considering a gergoplex when I get to stay travelling for training again)
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  I found the thumb keys were particularly useful for emacs ergonomics: I just have a big thumb key for each of Control and Meta with a smaller thumb key for the other one and shift on each side. I also remind some keys I use often to move them away from the corners. This entirely gets rid of emacs pinky for me. The only issue is I don’t have so many keys but I don’t really need a lot of them (home, end, delete, pgdn) as shortcuts usually suffice.
TaylorAlexander 6y ago
I built a dactyl manifold but still haven’t set up the layers to my liking. I’m back on my normal keyboard and wrist pain persists, but I suppose I should put some time in to adjusting to the dactyl.
denimnerd42 6y ago
The Kinesis Advantage is the single greatest product I've ever purchased for my health and career.
alasdair_ 6y ago
I love the Kinesis (I own two of them). I just wish they made the exact same keyboard but in a split model. As an aside, if you buy a Kinesis, look at getting the “LF” version of the Advantage, it comes with Cherry MX Reds instead of the defaults and the difference is enormous.
nefariousoctopi 6y ago
I definitely agree. One thing to note about Kinesis Advantage 2 is that it is really massive compared to other keyboards. I didn't realize before getting one for myself and seeing it on my desk. Second thing is that quite frankly at that price point Advantage looks a and feels a bit flimsy (especially the middle part between the key wells) though it has seemingly no impact on typing. And lastly, I have a bit broader shoulders than average and I need hands a bit more apart than the key wells on Kinesis and maybe a bit more tilted sideways (well at least I think, I am not a doctor). It is orders of magnitude better than it used to be on a regular keyboard, but I still have sore muscles around shoulder blades and back of my neck sometimes. All of these issues seem to be solvable by a split. I still hope that Kinesis would release a split concave keyboard by themselves since among all of the concave keyboards it is by far the most user friendly (no assembly required, no QMK compiling, remapping is doable on the keyboard itself), but I am starting to oogle the likes of Dactyl, Dactyl-ManuFrom or Bastyl[1] (which is modified Dactyl with less DIY required for more $$). If I go the DYI way I am also thinking about mounting trackball on it similar to the Tracktyl (trackball helped me immensely with my wrists). What I am a bit afraid of is that once I start doing customizations I'll need/want something easily modifiable/adjustable to experiment with quickly. This design [2] in combination with Bastyl-like flexible PCBs seems like a neat idea I'd like to try. Be not mistaken, Advantage is, not entirely unlike a good office chair or a mattress, still worth every penny, but IMO the split concave keyboards are the "future future". I would not even think of building a keyboard before Advantage, but now I do and there is no turning back for me. [1]: https://www.hidtech.ca/?product=bastyl https://www.hidtech.ca/?product=bastyl [2]: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=11734 https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=11734
cutthegrass2 6y ago
Curious to know whether anyone uses QWERTY on the Kinesis Adv. I've tried switching to it a number of times (from a standard 87key board), even getting unto >60wpm consistently, but its use in terminal sessions was always frustrating. Not being able to type "cd" with the index and middle finger of the left hand means I always felt super slow in the terminal. Should I have persevered? Is this a typical frustration of moving to a split ortholinear layout board using QWERTY? edit: spelling

by nbzso 6y ago

avindroth 6y ago

I'd go all the way and also add dvorak (programmer's) to the mix. But if somebody goes out of the way to buy an ergonomic keyboard, they are probably fiddling around with keymaps, too.

nbzso 6y ago
Advantage have Brown/Red Cherry and SmartSet Programming Engine: Dual-Layer layouts with secondary actions embedded in the “Keypad” layer US Version: Windows/Mac/PC Switchable (extra keycaps included) International Versions: Extra Windows keycap included One-touch, onboard key remapping so you can customize the layout to suit your typing style and preferences Heavy-duty, on-the-fly macros up to 300 characters long. Choose from 9 playback speeds and add timing delays to ensure proper playback. Native Dvorak layout which can be customized independently of the default QWERTY layout. All settings are saved to the keyboard’s 4MB flash memory.
andredz 6y ago
I sometimes use http://programmer-dvorak.appspot.com/ http://programmer-dvorak.appspot.com/ to practice. The ergonomics of accentuation is inconvenient, but this probably solves the problem: https://github.com/N0rthw1nd/Latin-Dvorak https://github.com/N0rthw1nd/Latin-Dvorak
- avindroth 6y ago
  I could never get my head around the numbers. I just have a custom layout where for 1,2,3,9,0 they are without shift, and for 4,5,6,7,8 they are with shift. So for me shift 1 is &, but shift 4 is 4. It actually works really well.

nunez 6y ago

I tried using a Kinesis Freestyle Bluetooth with the tents and pads; it was very comfortable but I still encountered wrist pain because of the keys being mushy. I’m going to try the mechanical version; I am hoping for better results

pabloarteel 6y ago

Around that topic of ergonomic tools, I've been wanting to try a vertical mouse. As a designer, my right hand is over the mouse a lot of the time. I have a chronic pain on my right wirst, although, I not certain of the cause. Anyone her has experience with this?

ahelwer 6y ago
Mice, as in things you drag across a desk surface, are a complete dead end ergonomically. Trackballs are the answer. I like the Kensington vertical trackball. The only thing that moves is your thumb. Those small precise wrist movements kill you.
- yellowapple 6y ago
  Seconded. I'm partial to Logitech's MX Ergo; I feel like fully vertical is a bit of an overcorrection, whereas the Ergo lets my hand rest diagonally, which feels a fair bit more natural and comfortable. Bought one on a whim for work, and I've enjoyed it enough that I bought a second one when I switched jobs this year.
- coryrc 6y ago
  I moved to a trackball, a large one. Made my wrist hurt after a ~week, so I went back to a regular mouse (which has never caused me pain) or, my favorite, using the trackpoint (but unless I want to shell out crazy money and wait a while can't get a split keyboard version, so it's only when using the machine away from my desk).
- perlpimp 6y ago
  tbh magic mouse pad with three finger drag has transformed my interaction with computer and Cooler Master master keys M(that they don't make anymore) given me numpad and cursor keys and navigation/edit keys very close. It is like 1/2 more ergonomic this way.
denimnerd42 6y ago
Yeah I found the Evoluent to be perfect for me. I actually had to give up mousing with my right wrist as it got too badly damaged. So now I use my left hand with a vertical mouse. Was an interesting transition period. I think you will notice a loss of precision though. For example I could never play an FPS at my best with a vertical mouse. But for $80-100 definitely worth a try for your health.

srcreigh 6y ago

After ~1.5 years using emacs keybindings in IntelliJ, I couldn't code for more than 20 minutes without pain. I no longer have any extended pain due to: 1. Modal editing. I use the boon package for emacs, but basically vim 2. Sticky keys. Basically, I don't have to hold down any modifiers, I just press Ctrl then press N for example. Or two Ctrl to lock it, NNNNNN, then Ctrl to return to normal. On macs this is in the Accessibility app under Keyboard. It doesn't work so well with Shift + mouse scroll though. 3. Kinesis advantage 2 4. Dvorak I still sometimes get a bit of pinky pain since I shift and ctrl with my pinkies. With sticky keys, modal editing, and mechanical switches in the Advantage 2, it's not really a problem. I learned that the macbook keyboards aren't that bad if I use modal editing and sticky modifier keys. Also I need to be careful to avoid so-called "ulnar deviation" of my wrists. This means I lift my wrists, let my fingers hang down more, so I can keep the wrists neutral while hitting shift etc. I don't think Dvorak helps much, but I still like it. It was intentionally put together. I think it helped to learn Dvorak and the concave key well of Advantage 2 at the same time. I never learned qwerty on the Advantage 2 or Dvorak on macbook keyboard. I want to try the programmer's dvorak layout as well for lisp.

__mharrison__ 6y ago
This is similar to my setup. Similar to a Jedi building your own light saber, you should build (and customize fw) for your keyboard :) When I built my ergodox, I put the Norman layout on it. I use emacs bindings almost everywhere, so control is under a thumb. (I'm still tweaking and considering a gergoplex when I get to stay travelling for training again)
dan-robertson 6y ago
I found the thumb keys were particularly useful for emacs ergonomics: I just have a big thumb key for each of Control and Meta with a smaller thumb key for the other one and shift on each side. I also remind some keys I use often to move them away from the corners. This entirely gets rid of emacs pinky for me. The only issue is I don’t have so many keys but I don’t really need a lot of them (home, end, delete, pgdn) as shortcuts usually suffice.

TaylorAlexander 6y ago

I built a dactyl manifold but still haven’t set up the layers to my liking. I’m back on my normal keyboard and wrist pain persists, but I suppose I should put some time in to adjusting to the dactyl.

denimnerd42 6y ago

The Kinesis Advantage is the single greatest product I've ever purchased for my health and career.

alasdair_ 6y ago

I love the Kinesis (I own two of them). I just wish they made the exact same keyboard but in a split model. As an aside, if you buy a Kinesis, look at getting the “LF” version of the Advantage, it comes with Cherry MX Reds instead of the defaults and the difference is enormous.

nefariousoctopi 6y ago

I definitely agree. One thing to note about Kinesis Advantage 2 is that it is really massive compared to other keyboards. I didn't realize before getting one for myself and seeing it on my desk. Second thing is that quite frankly at that price point Advantage looks a and feels a bit flimsy (especially the middle part between the key wells) though it has seemingly no impact on typing. And lastly, I have a bit broader shoulders than average and I need hands a bit more apart than the key wells on Kinesis and maybe a bit more tilted sideways (well at least I think, I am not a doctor). It is orders of magnitude better than it used to be on a regular keyboard, but I still have sore muscles around shoulder blades and back of my neck sometimes. All of these issues seem to be solvable by a split. I still hope that Kinesis would release a split concave keyboard by themselves since among all of the concave keyboards it is by far the most user friendly (no assembly required, no QMK compiling, remapping is doable on the keyboard itself), but I am starting to oogle the likes of Dactyl, Dactyl-ManuFrom or Bastyl[1] (which is modified Dactyl with less DIY required for more $$). If I go the DYI way I am also thinking about mounting trackball on it similar to the Tracktyl (trackball helped me immensely with my wrists). What I am a bit afraid of is that once I start doing customizations I'll need/want something easily modifiable/adjustable to experiment with quickly. This design [2] in combination with Bastyl-like flexible PCBs seems like a neat idea I'd like to try. Be not mistaken, Advantage is, not entirely unlike a good office chair or a mattress, still worth every penny, but IMO the split concave keyboards are the "future future". I would not even think of building a keyboard before Advantage, but now I do and there is no turning back for me. [1]: https://www.hidtech.ca/?product=bastyl https://www.hidtech.ca/?product=bastyl [2]: https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=11734 https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=11734

cutthegrass2 6y ago

Curious to know whether anyone uses QWERTY on the Kinesis Adv. I've tried switching to it a number of times (from a standard 87key board), even getting unto >60wpm consistently, but its use in terminal sessions was always frustrating. Not being able to type "cd" with the index and middle finger of the left hand means I always felt super slow in the terminal. Should I have persevered? Is this a typical frustration of moving to a split ortholinear layout board using QWERTY? edit: spelling