4 ms·

There's a movement to reframe things like autism as neurodiversity rather than strictly a disorder. I suppose the emphasis in that case would instead be on thin

by macksd 6y ago

There's a movement to reframe things like autism as neurodiversity rather than strictly a disorder. I suppose the emphasis in that case would instead be on things people can do well, not what they do wrong by everyone else's standard.

zamadatix 6y ago
Interesting. It's certainly a lighter way about talking about things but it does seem problematic from a pragmatic view. Likely it'd run into a wall when a person has more than one disorder (i.e. you can't composite things by listing them) or when the list of things that are affected is much shorter than the list that isn't (which should be the case for most folks).
SubiculumCode 6y ago
The neurodiversity movement/argument really gained strength as improvements in diagnostic instrument sensitivity produced diagnoses with less profound forms of autism. While I respect the message of neurodiversity, it has often come at the expense of individuals with profound autism where one would be hard-pressed to not apply labels like disability, impairment, and such. Profound autism represents a substantial proportion of the autistic spectrum, but they are the least able to represent and advocate for themselves.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  I think it's difficult with autism because autism applies to people who cannot feed themselves as well as people who would be defined by others as 'quirky'. There's no differentiation, so it'd be like calling all men disabled because some men are disabled. Of course, calling all men completely healthy isn't right either. There's no granularity.
  - throw998 6y ago
    These days it's also a lot of pretty much random people who were sent to the school psychologist for some reason or other, plus a bunch of people who went to see a GP for things like a runny nose and were hoodwinked into a couple of psychiatric diagnoses they'll never get rid of, plus a lot of depressive narcissists who cling to their unfounded diagnosis to feel better about themselves, and the doctors play along because it's the easiest way to deal with them. I suspect >90% of so called ASD cases have little real clinical basis these days and the entire disorder looks very fishy.
adaml_623 6y ago
It definitely feels like that redefinition would be a difficult thing to use for any practical purpose. Death redefined as a situation where people continue to have the ability to occupy space and don't require any food or oxygen.
- waheoo 6y ago
  Dead people don't have higher income insurance premiums. The neurodiverse do because they're more likely to have problems holding down a job.... Because people keep perpetuating a society that punishes difference.
trhway 6y ago
"Neurodiversity" does sound like a thing to be encouraged, or at least not to be avoided/minimized. Do we really want more autism?
- danielheath 6y ago
  Autism is an extremely broad term. At one extreme, those who will never speak and spend their lives enraged by being unable to communicate. At the other, a very substantial fraction of the worlds finest science & engineering minds. I wouldn't mind a few more of the latter.
  - trhway 6y ago
    you see, mentally right now choosing between neurodiversity and selection you voted for selection.
    - danielheath 6y ago
      Okay, fair enough: that was a shit way for me to make a point. There's nothing wrong with preferring that people have the ability to communicate with others (vs them not having that ability). The moral issue is externally-enforced selection (AKA eugenics), which seems to persistently rear its ugly head as soon as you start talking about disability. My friend (edit: redacted) chose not to have kids, because every ancestor he could trace on his paternal line had died of cancer around age 40, and he didn't think it was fair to inflict that on somebody else. I think that was a wise and moral choice - but it would not be wise or moral to take the choice away from him.
      - selimthegrim 6y ago
        How’s he doing on the cancer front so far?
        danielheath 6y ago
        He's made it to 50 via monthly blood tests, early intervention & staying extremely fit. Has still had more than his share of chemotherapy though.
alisonkisk 6y ago
"Neurodiversity" and "Neurodivergence" are browser terms than "autism". And calling any single person "diverse" is icky.
- macksd 6y ago
  At no point in my comment did I imply anything to the contrary. "things like autism" does not refer to autism exclusively nor to a person.
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
The two should be treated differently. Many are diagnosed with “autism”, seemingly not for any lack of ability, but præferences the diagnostician does not necessarily agree with. I also object to “neuro-” morpheme. The diagnosis of these conditions are psychiatric, not neurological, and in many cases where such a diagnosis was made, there is nothing neurologically unusual that could be found, but in some cases there is. Autism is simply with the current understanding not a neurological, but a psychiatric disorder. — the understanding may grow such that it might become one one day, but that is not the current level of understanding, and such understanding would most likely lead to the realization that all which is currently grouped under “autism”, has many different underlying neurological causes.
- TeaDrunk 6y ago
  > The diagnosis of these conditions are psychiatric, not neurological Oh, I'm pretty new to this myself, but my understanding was that autism was considered a neurological disorder, not a psychiatric one. [1] "Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) refers to a group of complex neurodevelopment disorders..." 1. https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Disorders/Patient-Caregiver-Education/Fact-Sheets/Autism-Spectrum-Disorder-Fact-Sheet https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Disorders/Patient-Caregiver-Educat...
  - throw998 6y ago
    So why is the diagnosis made by psychologists and psychiatrists, and not neurologists?
- SubiculumCode 6y ago
  Unless you believe in mind-body dualism, then your objection of the neuro morpheme is on shaky ground. All psychiatric disorders ARE neurological...i.e. is rooted in the brain and associated systems. Moreover, there are plenty of neurological differences between ASD and TD groups, both at the cellular and morphological levels. However, a lot of the morphological differences are too small, and heterogeneity too large, to be useful as a means of diagnosis.
  - 6y ago

by macksd 6y ago

zamadatix 6y ago

Interesting. It's certainly a lighter way about talking about things but it does seem problematic from a pragmatic view. Likely it'd run into a wall when a person has more than one disorder (i.e. you can't composite things by listing them) or when the list of things that are affected is much shorter than the list that isn't (which should be the case for most folks).

SubiculumCode 6y ago

The neurodiversity movement/argument really gained strength as improvements in diagnostic instrument sensitivity produced diagnoses with less profound forms of autism. While I respect the message of neurodiversity, it has often come at the expense of individuals with profound autism where one would be hard-pressed to not apply labels like disability, impairment, and such. Profound autism represents a substantial proportion of the autistic spectrum, but they are the least able to represent and advocate for themselves.

TeaDrunk 6y ago
I think it's difficult with autism because autism applies to people who cannot feed themselves as well as people who would be defined by others as 'quirky'. There's no differentiation, so it'd be like calling all men disabled because some men are disabled. Of course, calling all men completely healthy isn't right either. There's no granularity.
- throw998 6y ago
  These days it's also a lot of pretty much random people who were sent to the school psychologist for some reason or other, plus a bunch of people who went to see a GP for things like a runny nose and were hoodwinked into a couple of psychiatric diagnoses they'll never get rid of, plus a lot of depressive narcissists who cling to their unfounded diagnosis to feel better about themselves, and the doctors play along because it's the easiest way to deal with them. I suspect >90% of so called ASD cases have little real clinical basis these days and the entire disorder looks very fishy.

adaml_623 6y ago

It definitely feels like that redefinition would be a difficult thing to use for any practical purpose. Death redefined as a situation where people continue to have the ability to occupy space and don't require any food or oxygen.

waheoo 6y ago
Dead people don't have higher income insurance premiums. The neurodiverse do because they're more likely to have problems holding down a job.... Because people keep perpetuating a society that punishes difference.

trhway 6y ago

"Neurodiversity" does sound like a thing to be encouraged, or at least not to be avoided/minimized. Do we really want more autism?

danielheath 6y ago
Autism is an extremely broad term. At one extreme, those who will never speak and spend their lives enraged by being unable to communicate. At the other, a very substantial fraction of the worlds finest science & engineering minds. I wouldn't mind a few more of the latter.
- trhway 6y ago
  you see, mentally right now choosing between neurodiversity and selection you voted for selection.
  - danielheath 6y ago
    Okay, fair enough: that was a shit way for me to make a point. There's nothing wrong with preferring that people have the ability to communicate with others (vs them not having that ability). The moral issue is externally-enforced selection (AKA eugenics), which seems to persistently rear its ugly head as soon as you start talking about disability. My friend (edit: redacted) chose not to have kids, because every ancestor he could trace on his paternal line had died of cancer around age 40, and he didn't think it was fair to inflict that on somebody else. I think that was a wise and moral choice - but it would not be wise or moral to take the choice away from him.
    - selimthegrim 6y ago
      How’s he doing on the cancer front so far?
      - danielheath 6y ago
        He's made it to 50 via monthly blood tests, early intervention & staying extremely fit. Has still had more than his share of chemotherapy though.

alisonkisk 6y ago

"Neurodiversity" and "Neurodivergence" are browser terms than "autism". And calling any single person "diverse" is icky.

macksd 6y ago
At no point in my comment did I imply anything to the contrary. "things like autism" does not refer to autism exclusively nor to a person.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

The two should be treated differently. Many are diagnosed with “autism”, seemingly not for any lack of ability, but præferences the diagnostician does not necessarily agree with. I also object to “neuro-” morpheme. The diagnosis of these conditions are psychiatric, not neurological, and in many cases where such a diagnosis was made, there is nothing neurologically unusual that could be found, but in some cases there is. Autism is simply with the current understanding not a neurological, but a psychiatric disorder. — the understanding may grow such that it might become one one day, but that is not the current level of understanding, and such understanding would most likely lead to the realization that all which is currently grouped under “autism”, has many different underlying neurological causes.

TeaDrunk 6y ago
> The diagnosis of these conditions are psychiatric, not neurological Oh, I'm pretty new to this myself, but my understanding was that autism was considered a neurological disorder, not a psychiatric one. [1] "Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) refers to a group of complex neurodevelopment disorders..." 1. https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Disorders/Patient-Caregiver-Education/Fact-Sheets/Autism-Spectrum-Disorder-Fact-Sheet https://www.ninds.nih.gov/Disorders/Patient-Caregiver-Educat...
- throw998 6y ago
  So why is the diagnosis made by psychologists and psychiatrists, and not neurologists?
SubiculumCode 6y ago
Unless you believe in mind-body dualism, then your objection of the neuro morpheme is on shaky ground. All psychiatric disorders ARE neurological...i.e. is rooted in the brain and associated systems. Moreover, there are plenty of neurological differences between ASD and TD groups, both at the cellular and morphological levels. However, a lot of the morphological differences are too small, and heterogeneity too large, to be useful as a means of diagnosis.
- 6y ago