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The bigger issue related to this is not the Khashoggi was tortured to death and dismembered, but that America's alliance with Saudi Arabia is both immoral and s

The bigger issue related to this is not the Khashoggi was tortured to death and dismembered, but that America's alliance with Saudi Arabia is both immoral and strategically stupid. However, Saudi Arabia's corrupt grip on our ruling class is so thorough that it is able to suppress speech like this that might make the Saudi government look even slightly bad. We never get to the point to which the Saudi alliance is questioned at a fundamental level. The motte and bailey style 'debate' stays in the realm of whether or not the Khashoggi murder was bad, or on some other irrelevant side issue of the Saudi government's conduct. The problem, essentially, is our military alliance with Saudi Arabia. This is almost never debated. Only side issues such as Saudi women not being allowed to drive or Saudi use of the death penalty are ever allowed to be raised. It's considered 'unserious' to question the iron security guarantee that our republic provides to this royal family. Saudi Arabia could turn 1 million Kahsoggis into meatballs and the American Op-Ed-Oligarchy would be unwilling to question the fundamental diplomatic issue of America's alliance with Saudi Arabia. We have already tested this commitment when a couple dozen Saudi nationals blew up the World Trade Center twice and the alliance with Saudi Arabia only strengthened as a response. This would be like Gavrilo Princip killing Franz Ferdinand and the Habsburgs responding by increasing foreign and military aid to Serbia, encouraging Serbia to blow up more of its neighbors, then going to war on behalf of Serbia multiple times to increase its power and influence. 27D chess or corrupt-stupid-evil; you decide.

humbleMouse 6y ago
Can’t question the isreal alliance either, some things are just off topic.
- vagrantJin 6y ago
  Haha. It seems you have hit the nail on the head with exacting precision
- cbozeman 6y ago
  That one is a lot stickier, because no one tried to systematically wipe out the Saudi people. Hundreds of thousands of Saudis didn't immigrate here to escape certain death. There's also the fact that America is still a very religious country - and takes it seriously - so many people support Israel because they really do believe they're protecting God's chosen people. No one should "wish" for war, but I've often wondered what would happen if Saudi Arabia decided to wage war against Israel. I'm very curious with whom America would ultimately side.
  - tsimionescu 6y ago
    > There's also the fact that America is still a very religious country - and takes it seriously - so many people support Israel because they really do believe they're protecting God's chosen people. From what I understand, there is also a surprisingly large base of devout Christians who support Israel in the hopes/belief that it will lead to a prophesied battle at Armaggedon, helping to usher the end of the world. Apparently [0] George Bush Jr. may have been a believer in this theory (though others dispute this: [1]) [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/aug/10/religion-george-bush https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/a... [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/15/bush-chirac-and-the-war-in-iraq/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/15/bush-chirac-and-the-war...
    - leto_ii 6y ago
      Your comment reminds me of a series of concepts that I've discovered while going down a Wikipedia rabbit hole of protestant theology: [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism Some of this stuff makes the blood curdle. If it was spewed by some guy in a turban the US would probably have had him killed with robots from the sky by now...
      - eznzt 6y ago
        "According to an Ifop opinion poll in October, 57 per cent of French Muslims under 25 think sharia law is more important than the law of the French republic" https://www.ft.com/content/b6c0681f-3a0a-40fa-8b90-86997925f6b0 https://www.ft.com/content/b6c0681f-3a0a-40fa-8b90-86997925f...
    - angst_ridden 6y ago
      In the past few decades, unequivocal support for Israel has fallen among American Jews, while it has grown among Evangelical Christians. Admittedly, these numbers are complicated, as a majority American Jews say they feel an "emotional connection" to Israel, but nearly 60% are critical of the country's policies, and fewer than 25% are both pro-Israel and supportive of the current government policies. See https://jewishcurrents.org/are-95-of-jews-really-zionists/ https://jewishcurrents.org/are-95-of-jews-really-zionists/, https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/80-percent-of-us-jews-say-they-are-pro-israel-study-finds-616479 https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/80-percent-of-us-jews-say-the..., etc.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  The Israel alliance is hard to question simply because, unlike Saudi Arabia, Israel is very popular in the US. If all you saw was the polling data - there’s a country A with 70% favorability overall, at least 50% within each political party, and their main rival B has 20% favorability - you wouldn’t be surprised to see a strong and hard to question alliance with A.
cbozeman 6y ago
Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. And what's worse, its over oil - a resource that, no matter what your stance on climate change is - from which we are rapidly transitioning away.
- joejohnson 6y ago
  Absolutely. I am pro-climate change and I still think the US’s relationship with Saudi Arabia is strategically stupid.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    > I am pro-climate change Wait, what? What do you mean?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - joejohnson 6y ago
      What does “no matter your stance on climate change” mean? (parent comment) For the record, I am also pro-gravity.
      - enriquto 6y ago
        It sounds as if you fought for the climate to change faster, liberating tons of methane in the atmosphere and burning fossil fuels like crazy.
        pc86 6y ago
        Which is a stance that nobody believe, so it's clearly not that. Even people who deny climate change as a science wouldn't describe themselves as "fighting for the climate to change faster."
        cbozeman 6y ago
        This would actually be hilarious... some deranged Bond villain who's conspiring to melt the permafrost to release all the methane so as to drive humanity extinct, lol...
vmception 6y ago
“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize“ Yeah, but why is the list growing?
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  If you respond to a power grab by competing over who can surrender the fastest, what do you expect to happen?
noelsusman 6y ago
You can't question our alliance with Saudi Arabia without questioning our alliance with Israel. Well, you can, but the former flows from the latter. If we're going to be allies with Israel, then Iran is our enemy. If Iran is our enemy, then Saudi Arabia is our friend. We've come up with all sorts of other rationalizations over the years, but that is the core of it. I've begun to see the faintest whiffs of questioning the Saudi alliance among the foreign policy establishment, but I suspect our deeply pro-Israel sentiments will prevent anything from changing for a long time.
- chishaku 6y ago
  > will prevent anything from changing also petrodollars and preserving reserve currency status
- Chris2048 6y ago
  > If Iran is our enemy, then Saudi Arabia is our friend Why is this?
- stretchcat 6y ago
  JFK's attempts to stop Israel's nuclear weapons program ended when he got shot in the head. His successor, LBJ, dropped the issue.

humbleMouse 6y ago

Can’t question the isreal alliance either, some things are just off topic.

vagrantJin 6y ago
Haha. It seems you have hit the nail on the head with exacting precision
cbozeman 6y ago
That one is a lot stickier, because no one tried to systematically wipe out the Saudi people. Hundreds of thousands of Saudis didn't immigrate here to escape certain death. There's also the fact that America is still a very religious country - and takes it seriously - so many people support Israel because they really do believe they're protecting God's chosen people. No one should "wish" for war, but I've often wondered what would happen if Saudi Arabia decided to wage war against Israel. I'm very curious with whom America would ultimately side.
- tsimionescu 6y ago
  > There's also the fact that America is still a very religious country - and takes it seriously - so many people support Israel because they really do believe they're protecting God's chosen people. From what I understand, there is also a surprisingly large base of devout Christians who support Israel in the hopes/belief that it will lead to a prophesied battle at Armaggedon, helping to usher the end of the world. Apparently [0] George Bush Jr. may have been a believer in this theory (though others dispute this: [1]) [0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/aug/10/religion-george-bush https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2009/a... [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/15/bush-chirac-and-the-war-in-iraq/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/15/bush-chirac-and-the-war...
  - leto_ii 6y ago
    Your comment reminds me of a series of concepts that I've discovered while going down a Wikipedia rabbit hole of protestant theology: [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism Some of this stuff makes the blood curdle. If it was spewed by some guy in a turban the US would probably have had him killed with robots from the sky by now...
    - eznzt 6y ago
      "According to an Ifop opinion poll in October, 57 per cent of French Muslims under 25 think sharia law is more important than the law of the French republic" https://www.ft.com/content/b6c0681f-3a0a-40fa-8b90-86997925f6b0 https://www.ft.com/content/b6c0681f-3a0a-40fa-8b90-86997925f...
  - angst_ridden 6y ago
    In the past few decades, unequivocal support for Israel has fallen among American Jews, while it has grown among Evangelical Christians. Admittedly, these numbers are complicated, as a majority American Jews say they feel an "emotional connection" to Israel, but nearly 60% are critical of the country's policies, and fewer than 25% are both pro-Israel and supportive of the current government policies. See https://jewishcurrents.org/are-95-of-jews-really-zionists/ https://jewishcurrents.org/are-95-of-jews-really-zionists/, https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/80-percent-of-us-jews-say-they-are-pro-israel-study-finds-616479 https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/80-percent-of-us-jews-say-the..., etc.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
The Israel alliance is hard to question simply because, unlike Saudi Arabia, Israel is very popular in the US. If all you saw was the polling data - there’s a country A with 70% favorability overall, at least 50% within each political party, and their main rival B has 20% favorability - you wouldn’t be surprised to see a strong and hard to question alliance with A.

cbozeman 6y ago

Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. And what's worse, its over oil - a resource that, no matter what your stance on climate change is - from which we are rapidly transitioning away.

joejohnson 6y ago
Absolutely. I am pro-climate change and I still think the US’s relationship with Saudi Arabia is strategically stupid.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > I am pro-climate change Wait, what? What do you mean?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - joejohnson 6y ago
    What does “no matter your stance on climate change” mean? (parent comment) For the record, I am also pro-gravity.
    - enriquto 6y ago
      It sounds as if you fought for the climate to change faster, liberating tons of methane in the atmosphere and burning fossil fuels like crazy.
      - pc86 6y ago
        Which is a stance that nobody believe, so it's clearly not that. Even people who deny climate change as a science wouldn't describe themselves as "fighting for the climate to change faster."
      - cbozeman 6y ago
        This would actually be hilarious... some deranged Bond villain who's conspiring to melt the permafrost to release all the methane so as to drive humanity extinct, lol...

vmception 6y ago

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize“ Yeah, but why is the list growing?

thaumasiotes 6y ago
If you respond to a power grab by competing over who can surrender the fastest, what do you expect to happen?

noelsusman 6y ago

You can't question our alliance with Saudi Arabia without questioning our alliance with Israel. Well, you can, but the former flows from the latter. If we're going to be allies with Israel, then Iran is our enemy. If Iran is our enemy, then Saudi Arabia is our friend. We've come up with all sorts of other rationalizations over the years, but that is the core of it. I've begun to see the faintest whiffs of questioning the Saudi alliance among the foreign policy establishment, but I suspect our deeply pro-Israel sentiments will prevent anything from changing for a long time.

chishaku 6y ago
> will prevent anything from changing also petrodollars and preserving reserve currency status
Chris2048 6y ago
> If Iran is our enemy, then Saudi Arabia is our friend Why is this?
stretchcat 6y ago
JFK's attempts to stop Israel's nuclear weapons program ended when he got shot in the head. His successor, LBJ, dropped the issue.