7 ms·

Brexit reality as I watch the wine supply chain collapse before my eyes

User23 6y ago
The wine supply chain already collapsed due to Covid-19. Can hardly find a decent bottle of Port for example.
wyldfire 6y ago
Brexit seems like it was a bad move that the UK will regret. But transitional problems like this are IMO to be expected any time there's a change. If you are in favor of leaving the EU, this shouldn't be a significant regret factor. "Just" more frustrations in government rollout of new programs.
- Arnt 6y ago
  There are big problems on the UK/France border now. But that's not "to be expected", it is to be expected if one deploys a big change without preparing and testing. The French customs service prepared and ran several tests, including this famous one: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/24/trial-of-brexit-border-checks-causes-five-mile-lorry-queues-in-kent https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/24/trial-of-br... The British one didn't, and now has problems. See here, for example: https://twitter.com/DanielLambert29/status/1352887380827643904 https://twitter.com/DanielLambert29/status/13528873808276439... One side prepared, tested and copes. The other didn't, didn't, and doesn't.
  - dingaling 6y ago
    > The other didn't, didn't, and doesn't. That French test was of physical controls, not subtle customs coding like the wine example. It's like the difference between an integration test and beta testing. Of course there will be issues, on both sides. And on a more theoretical level, if the EEC had continued as-is and hadn't transformed itself into a political union then we probably wouldn't have had Brexit. So who's to blame?
    - orwin 6y ago
      > Of course there will be issues, on both sides. Yet for now one side seems a lot less prepared than the other one. > And on a more theoretical level, if the EEC had continued as-is and hadn't transformed itself into a political union then we probably wouldn't have had Brexit. So who's to blame? Sorry? Then why not join under Shengen's deal like Switzerland? Nothing to do politically with the UE, same rules and duty as the EEC used to have with some right removed. But Shengen dealt exclusively with trade and movement. Who's to blame? People that never thought about "what would happen if..." and voted anyway. Who will suffer? Always the same.
    - Arnt 6y ago
      What are the issues that "of course there will be", I mean the ones that the French didn't catch in their preparation or (several) tests?
ivraatiems 6y ago
I was in London the day of and after the Brexit vote in 2016. I still remember the shock of so many people there, including EU citizens who didn't know where they'd live or work when it was all over. I often wonder what happened to some of those people. As I recall, nobody who actually lived in London wanted Brexit to happen - the only person I met who did was a cabbie who lived outside of the city. He told us we were his last ride. He had to get home to vote. I hope at least he got what he wanted. From my perspective, Brexit has always seemed like an absolutely massive economic, political, and cultural self-own. It seems like it was born from a sense of self-importance that was based in a kind of Britain that just doesn't exist anymore - one that is the head of an empire, not just a piece of one. I understand why the arguments for it worked, but I wish they hadn't, because this nonsense (and much worse!) was always where it was going to end up. But I'm not British, so what do I know? My country hasn't done much better in terms of political decision making. For those who supported it here, I sincerely hope it's been worth it.
- wyldfire 6y ago
  > From my perspective, Brexit has always seemed like an absolutely massive economic, political, and cultural self-own. I agree. But it's less humiliating than the MAGA and QAnon crowds' self-own.
  - loriverkutya 6y ago
    Wait a few months and reevaluate this comment.
  - levidavidmurray 6y ago
    1. No one was talking about the U.S. 2. "Yeah, but it's not as bad as X" doesn't help anyone
    - wyldfire 6y ago
      1. You're right, I brought it up. I think it's ok/acceptable to compare/contrast these kinds of things among countries. 2. You're right, I'm wallowing in self-pity for my country's massive recent failures.
thehappypm 6y ago
I wonder if the dust settles and the UK/EU relationship becomes much like Canada to the US. Canada is a deep ally to the US, with a demilitarized border, tons of trade, friendly relations, cultural sharing, and easy transit between the two nations (covid notwithstanding). Canada is a much smaller, less powerful, poorer, and less globally relevant country, but is hardly impoverished. And it seems there truly are advantages to being smaller and more independent -- Canada certainly has some strong societal advantages over the US, a better social safety net, less of a military-industry complex, better income equality, etc.
- smnrchrds 6y ago
  > poorer Canada has a higher GDP per capita than UK. Its lower GDP is because of its lower population. I wouldn't call Canada poor, any more than I would call Luxembourg, Switzerland, or Singapore poor (all of which have lower GDPs but higher GDP per capitas than both UK and Canada).
  - thehappypm 6y ago
    I was saying poorer than the US.
    - smnrchrds 6y ago
      That makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  Canada seems to actually understand where they stand relative to the US, which smooths a lot of the negotiations out. The UK on the other hand seems to think that they can bully the EU around and ... that’s not working out so great for them.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > I wonder if the dust settles and the UK/EU relationship becomes much like Canada to the US. Canada is a deep ally to the US, with a demilitarized border, tons of trade, friendly relations, cultural sharing, and easy transit between the two nations (covid notwithstanding). How much of the US/CA (excluding Quebec) relationship is enabled by common language and extremely similar cultures? The center of gravity of the EU isn't English speaking, so I'd expect relations to be at least somewhat more distant.
mchusma 6y ago
I think the massively better UK response to COVID vaccine distribution shows some of the benefits of independence.
- cassianoleal 6y ago
  I hope this is sarcasm. The UK is planning to forego the manufacturer's and the WHO's recommended time between doses in favour of getting the first dose to more people. AFAIK nobody knows how that will affect efficacy and might render the entire vaccination program useless, all in the name of getting a higher number of people vaccinated so the headlines look better.
  - billyruffian 6y ago
    it's worth pointing out, for sake of completeness, that the UK has delivered nearly 500K second dose vaccines. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    Funnily enough it looks like the EU is threatening to setup an "export transparency mechanism" to control vaccine exports to third countries.
  - tim333 6y ago
    >all in the name of getting a higher number of people vaccinated so the headlines look better. In the name of saving lives actually. Two people getting 90% protection beats one getting 95%.

The wine supply chain already collapsed due to Covid-19. Can hardly find a decent bottle of Port for example.

Brexit seems like it was a bad move that the UK will regret. But transitional problems like this are IMO to be expected any time there's a change. If you are in favor of leaving the EU, this shouldn't be a significant regret factor. "Just" more frustrations in government rollout of new programs.

Arnt 6y ago
There are big problems on the UK/France border now. But that's not "to be expected", it is to be expected if one deploys a big change without preparing and testing. The French customs service prepared and ran several tests, including this famous one: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/24/trial-of-brexit-border-checks-causes-five-mile-lorry-queues-in-kent https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/24/trial-of-br... The British one didn't, and now has problems. See here, for example: https://twitter.com/DanielLambert29/status/1352887380827643904 https://twitter.com/DanielLambert29/status/13528873808276439... One side prepared, tested and copes. The other didn't, didn't, and doesn't.
- dingaling 6y ago
  > The other didn't, didn't, and doesn't. That French test was of physical controls, not subtle customs coding like the wine example. It's like the difference between an integration test and beta testing. Of course there will be issues, on both sides. And on a more theoretical level, if the EEC had continued as-is and hadn't transformed itself into a political union then we probably wouldn't have had Brexit. So who's to blame?
  - orwin 6y ago
    > Of course there will be issues, on both sides. Yet for now one side seems a lot less prepared than the other one. > And on a more theoretical level, if the EEC had continued as-is and hadn't transformed itself into a political union then we probably wouldn't have had Brexit. So who's to blame? Sorry? Then why not join under Shengen's deal like Switzerland? Nothing to do politically with the UE, same rules and duty as the EEC used to have with some right removed. But Shengen dealt exclusively with trade and movement. Who's to blame? People that never thought about "what would happen if..." and voted anyway. Who will suffer? Always the same.
  - Arnt 6y ago
    What are the issues that "of course there will be", I mean the ones that the French didn't catch in their preparation or (several) tests?

ivraatiems 6y ago

I was in London the day of and after the Brexit vote in 2016. I still remember the shock of so many people there, including EU citizens who didn't know where they'd live or work when it was all over. I often wonder what happened to some of those people. As I recall, nobody who actually lived in London wanted Brexit to happen - the only person I met who did was a cabbie who lived outside of the city. He told us we were his last ride. He had to get home to vote. I hope at least he got what he wanted. From my perspective, Brexit has always seemed like an absolutely massive economic, political, and cultural self-own. It seems like it was born from a sense of self-importance that was based in a kind of Britain that just doesn't exist anymore - one that is the head of an empire, not just a piece of one. I understand why the arguments for it worked, but I wish they hadn't, because this nonsense (and much worse!) was always where it was going to end up. But I'm not British, so what do I know? My country hasn't done much better in terms of political decision making. For those who supported it here, I sincerely hope it's been worth it.

wyldfire 6y ago
> From my perspective, Brexit has always seemed like an absolutely massive economic, political, and cultural self-own. I agree. But it's less humiliating than the MAGA and QAnon crowds' self-own.
- loriverkutya 6y ago
  Wait a few months and reevaluate this comment.
- levidavidmurray 6y ago
  1. No one was talking about the U.S. 2. "Yeah, but it's not as bad as X" doesn't help anyone
  - wyldfire 6y ago
    1. You're right, I brought it up. I think it's ok/acceptable to compare/contrast these kinds of things among countries. 2. You're right, I'm wallowing in self-pity for my country's massive recent failures.

thehappypm 6y ago

I wonder if the dust settles and the UK/EU relationship becomes much like Canada to the US. Canada is a deep ally to the US, with a demilitarized border, tons of trade, friendly relations, cultural sharing, and easy transit between the two nations (covid notwithstanding). Canada is a much smaller, less powerful, poorer, and less globally relevant country, but is hardly impoverished. And it seems there truly are advantages to being smaller and more independent -- Canada certainly has some strong societal advantages over the US, a better social safety net, less of a military-industry complex, better income equality, etc.

smnrchrds 6y ago
> poorer Canada has a higher GDP per capita than UK. Its lower GDP is because of its lower population. I wouldn't call Canada poor, any more than I would call Luxembourg, Switzerland, or Singapore poor (all of which have lower GDPs but higher GDP per capitas than both UK and Canada).
- thehappypm 6y ago
  I was saying poorer than the US.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    That makes more sense. Thank you for the clarification.
ashtonkem 6y ago
Canada seems to actually understand where they stand relative to the US, which smooths a lot of the negotiations out. The UK on the other hand seems to think that they can bully the EU around and ... that’s not working out so great for them.
ardy42 6y ago
> I wonder if the dust settles and the UK/EU relationship becomes much like Canada to the US. Canada is a deep ally to the US, with a demilitarized border, tons of trade, friendly relations, cultural sharing, and easy transit between the two nations (covid notwithstanding). How much of the US/CA (excluding Quebec) relationship is enabled by common language and extremely similar cultures? The center of gravity of the EU isn't English speaking, so I'd expect relations to be at least somewhat more distant.

mchusma 6y ago

I think the massively better UK response to COVID vaccine distribution shows some of the benefits of independence.

cassianoleal 6y ago
I hope this is sarcasm. The UK is planning to forego the manufacturer's and the WHO's recommended time between doses in favour of getting the first dose to more people. AFAIK nobody knows how that will affect efficacy and might render the entire vaccination program useless, all in the name of getting a higher number of people vaccinated so the headlines look better.
- billyruffian 6y ago
  it's worth pointing out, for sake of completeness, that the UK has delivered nearly 500K second dose vaccines. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  Funnily enough it looks like the EU is threatening to setup an "export transparency mechanism" to control vaccine exports to third countries.
- tim333 6y ago
  >all in the name of getting a higher number of people vaccinated so the headlines look better. In the name of saving lives actually. Two people getting 90% protection beats one getting 95%.