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> I hear you, but... I understand what you are feeling when you contemplate the wonder of humankind's technological achievements, which, by some measures, nece

> I hear you, but... I understand what you are feeling when you contemplate the wonder of humankind's technological achievements, which, by some measures, necessarily narrow, far surpass the capabilities of any other species. It's worth reflecting on this feeling, which comes reflexively to anyone who is presented with the intellectual challenge that you answered with your complete response above. When Darwin first published his theory of evolution, he got a lot of pushback from people because of this exact feeling. 19th century British humans resented being "relegated" to the relations of apes. They scorned Darwin for saying it. Why?

steve_adams_86 6y ago
I don’t mean to say I’m not satisfied with being a hairless ape - I simply am what I am. But as much as I marvel at other species and even envy their abilities, I appreciate our own unique abilities as well. And of course, reflexively marvelling at human achievement is worth reflecting on. I do that quite a bit. I personally think humans are largely pro-social, and this reflex is partially an extension of the human tendency to innately cheer for humanity. It seems literally in our nature to promote ourselves in this way. At the end of the day, I’m largely vegetarian (I eat some fish) because rationally I know that I can’t really differentiate my human experience from that of a cow or chicken, and I’d rather not risk that killing and eating a cow would be no different from a cow killing and eating me. Space exploration isn’t enough for me to justify killing an animal that’s ultimately not much different from me. Perhaps somehow we could learn that that’s ridiculous and all animals are basically robots and humans are the only conscience on the universe. Until then I’d rather assume some cow out there is wondering about humans and wondering why we aren’t as clever as they are.
- amelius 6y ago
  The self is merely an illusion. On a different level you are that cow, and that chicken too.
  - Koshkin 6y ago
    But I kinda like that illusion.
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  How do you feel when non-humans wantonly kill humans? Just wondering ;-)
  - steve_adams_86 6y ago
    I’m honestly not sure. The world appears to contain life which feeds on life, so on some level it’s entirely necessary in order for life to continue as we know it. I know that I can make a choice to feed on life (or at least life like my own) less but I have no way of knowing that about anything else. My intuition is that most animals can’t or don’t distinguish much in what life they feed on and so if they eat humans, it’s simply according to nature and not problematic in the least.
    - wombatmobile 6y ago
      > My intuition is that most animals can’t or don’t distinguish much in what life they feed on and so if they eat humans, it’s simply according to nature and not problematic in the least. I agree with the second part of your statement, and also much of the first part, sort of... but what I'm about to write may at first glance sound like a snarky gotcha. That's not my intention at all. It is an informed, educated view, and I don't like it any more than you might, because it bursts an illusion, at least for now. Firstly, I think animals can distinguish what they eat in a very sophisticated way. At least as sophisticated as humans. Animals, after all, feed themselves with their own energy, guile and knowledge. They don't rely on supermarkets like many humans do, so they know exactly what is going on. I am mostly vegan, because I prefer vegan food. When I eat animals on occasion, I do it in the same spirit you described in your consideration of animals who kill humans and other animals for food. It is part of nature, and I can embrace that. You also said this is "a choice". Ethically, morally, spiritually, and out of shared interest, I can agree with you. However, I learned something recently from a radio show that followed a group of people who set up on virgin land, trying to be self-sufficient. What they found is important for our discussion. It isn't possible for everyone who wants to live self-sufficiently to grow enough protein to survive. The soil in most places, and the climate won't support it. In order to live as a pure vegan, we need supermarkets and globalism, or at the very least, food transit on a global scale. Those giant South American soy plantations are built on destroyed forest habitat. :-( The people in the radio documentary had to grow animals in order to obtain protein to survive. When they ate those animals, they did it with profound respect and understanding for the value of life, having raised the animals themselves. I've heard conventional farmers speak this way about animal lives too. It's something I think we need to understand and come to grips with intellectually, because the pure choice some people have of going vegan, is not a choice for everyone on the planet, at least, not with current technology and environmental constraints.
Teever 6y ago
Because a human published the On the Origin of Species not another species of ape.

steve_adams_86 6y ago

I don’t mean to say I’m not satisfied with being a hairless ape - I simply am what I am. But as much as I marvel at other species and even envy their abilities, I appreciate our own unique abilities as well. And of course, reflexively marvelling at human achievement is worth reflecting on. I do that quite a bit. I personally think humans are largely pro-social, and this reflex is partially an extension of the human tendency to innately cheer for humanity. It seems literally in our nature to promote ourselves in this way. At the end of the day, I’m largely vegetarian (I eat some fish) because rationally I know that I can’t really differentiate my human experience from that of a cow or chicken, and I’d rather not risk that killing and eating a cow would be no different from a cow killing and eating me. Space exploration isn’t enough for me to justify killing an animal that’s ultimately not much different from me. Perhaps somehow we could learn that that’s ridiculous and all animals are basically robots and humans are the only conscience on the universe. Until then I’d rather assume some cow out there is wondering about humans and wondering why we aren’t as clever as they are.

amelius 6y ago
The self is merely an illusion. On a different level you are that cow, and that chicken too.
- Koshkin 6y ago
  But I kinda like that illusion.
wombatmobile 6y ago
How do you feel when non-humans wantonly kill humans? Just wondering ;-)
- steve_adams_86 6y ago
  I’m honestly not sure. The world appears to contain life which feeds on life, so on some level it’s entirely necessary in order for life to continue as we know it. I know that I can make a choice to feed on life (or at least life like my own) less but I have no way of knowing that about anything else. My intuition is that most animals can’t or don’t distinguish much in what life they feed on and so if they eat humans, it’s simply according to nature and not problematic in the least.
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    > My intuition is that most animals can’t or don’t distinguish much in what life they feed on and so if they eat humans, it’s simply according to nature and not problematic in the least. I agree with the second part of your statement, and also much of the first part, sort of... but what I'm about to write may at first glance sound like a snarky gotcha. That's not my intention at all. It is an informed, educated view, and I don't like it any more than you might, because it bursts an illusion, at least for now. Firstly, I think animals can distinguish what they eat in a very sophisticated way. At least as sophisticated as humans. Animals, after all, feed themselves with their own energy, guile and knowledge. They don't rely on supermarkets like many humans do, so they know exactly what is going on. I am mostly vegan, because I prefer vegan food. When I eat animals on occasion, I do it in the same spirit you described in your consideration of animals who kill humans and other animals for food. It is part of nature, and I can embrace that. You also said this is "a choice". Ethically, morally, spiritually, and out of shared interest, I can agree with you. However, I learned something recently from a radio show that followed a group of people who set up on virgin land, trying to be self-sufficient. What they found is important for our discussion. It isn't possible for everyone who wants to live self-sufficiently to grow enough protein to survive. The soil in most places, and the climate won't support it. In order to live as a pure vegan, we need supermarkets and globalism, or at the very least, food transit on a global scale. Those giant South American soy plantations are built on destroyed forest habitat. :-( The people in the radio documentary had to grow animals in order to obtain protein to survive. When they ate those animals, they did it with profound respect and understanding for the value of life, having raised the animals themselves. I've heard conventional farmers speak this way about animal lives too. It's something I think we need to understand and come to grips with intellectually, because the pure choice some people have of going vegan, is not a choice for everyone on the planet, at least, not with current technology and environmental constraints.

Teever 6y ago

Because a human published the On the Origin of Species not another species of ape.