3 ms·

The breakdown of trust in a society is a vicious cycle that seems hard to break. When a mistrust dynamic sets in, how can it be reversed?

lainga 6y ago
IMO trust is associated with a certain social interaction. Once it's broken, one common way (the most? not sure) of re-establishing trust is to establish new social interactions, probably more personal and less complex. The example I'm thinking of is the emergence of organised crime in Sicily out of informal relationships between citizens who can't count on the state for protection or justice. Or the emergence of feudal contracts between a leader and his subordinates, where the old Roman system of tax collection and provincial administration had broken down (in some cases long after Rome had left the area - polities like Soissons ran the Roman administrative model into the ground until the high-personal-trust structure of early feudalism came along and overtook them).
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  We're kind of barreling toward this reality in pockets of the western world. Where I live in the US (wealthy blue state, not rural Alabama, don't get your hopes up) you pretty much can't do fair business at a fair price without a personal reference or prior business relationship. And in some of the smaller wealthier towns you can see this kind of behavior start to creep into local government. Of course this is a far cry from not being able to rely on the police but it's definitely movement in that direction.
  - foolinaround 6y ago
    ? Where I live in the US (wealthy blue state, not rural Alabama, don't get your hopes up) you pretty much can't do fair business at a fair price without a personal reference or prior business relationship. Are you able to share an anecdote on this?
misterbwong 6y ago
Sounds overly-simplistic but the solution is to build trust again. Unfortunately, the incentives that rule our society are pushing us away from this. We need to align incentives properly if we're going to have any hope of building trust again. ex: 1. The internet, as a technology, is amazing but functions as a possible bullhorn for everyone, without filter. It does not reward the best possible or most positive idea, only the one that grabs the most attention. 2. Shock and outrage drive the clicks/views/attention and everyone gets paid on these metrics. 3. Social media companies thrive on and optimize for attention metrics. The longer you use them, at the expense of things like participating in your community and building relationships, the more "successful" they are and the more $$$ they get 4. Society has moved towards more specialized play and communities. We participate in fewer and fewer activities where we just randomly encounter strangers. 5. Our current election system rewards divisiveness because it drives turnout. The candidate that can do the best job doesn't win-the candidate that can get the most votes does. Possibly unpopular view: Encouraging religious participation would go a long way to help. Whether you believe or do not, religion helps align society away from purely individualistic pursuits and more towards a "corporate good".
- iso1631 6y ago
  > Possibly unpopular view: Encouraging religious participation would go a long way to help. Whether you believe or do not, religion helps align society away from purely individualistic pursuits and more towards a "corporate good". How does that work out in 3rd world countries where there's high levels of religious membership and high levels of angry young men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun... "Is religion important in your daily life" There seems to be a correlation between countries with corrupt/untrusted governments and high religious importance. Compare the Corruption Perceptions Index 2019 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index] with importance of religion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun...] And you don't get an exact line, but there's certainly a trend there. Those with high corruption and relatively low religion are ex Soviet/Commumist (Azerbajan, Ukraine, Russia, Vietnam, Bulgaria, Hungary, Belarus, Cuba have <50% religion and >50 corrupt) There's always outliers, like Singapore (70% religious but only 15 corrupt / 85 notcorrupt), but there's a trend https://i.imgur.com/oFiAbAN.png https://i.imgur.com/oFiAbAN.png
bsenftner 6y ago
A method to address mistrust is to initiate "virtue circles": do people unrequested favors, without expectation of any return. Just do it; it actually feels good. And it is infectious. Others start doing it too, and double so when you subtly exhibit the joy of helping others without any expectations. Once more than 3 people in any social circle start this type of positive interaction, a positive culture shift occurs in the social group. It is quite amazing how fast this transition happens, as if people are waiting for an excuse to be better with others.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  And make sure there is space for people to do this, and reward it where possible. Companies are moving more and more towards metrics, which means the nice guy that helps everyone out but isn't as great with his metrics gets screwed, vs. the asshole who optimizes only for the metrics while screwing everyone over gets ahead. Once the nice guy has seen this happen over and over, even the nicest person breaks, gives in, and starts playing by the rules of the system, which by design incentivize working towards the measurable goals.
  - bsenftner 6y ago
    "It's all about the incentives" - Steven D. Levitt
- jrexilius 6y ago
  Very much this. I would amplify it a bit and say talk to real humans in real life (not through a screen). Be a good neighbor, smile and greet people, help strangers. It sounds trite, but I think its the best path. A persons physical community is more important that twitter (or HN for that matter). Culture is made from the choices and shared knowledge of individuals. Being open to others is a prerequisite to influencing change. Accepting imperfections and poor decissions in others is a prerequisite to improving things. I don't see a magical switch that can be flipped to suddenly change a culture, nor do I see secret cabals controling us from the shadows, so no help from the illuminati or whatever.. It's the choices we make and the views we hold about our fellow citizens, and those are better in real-life than on-screen.
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
Putting in extra effort to actively demonstrate trustworthiness. That means when leaders are speaking, they need to monitor how their words are perceived, and resolve misunderstandings quickly. Also, overcommunicate and share evidence, and be honest and direct.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

lainga 6y ago

IMO trust is associated with a certain social interaction. Once it's broken, one common way (the most? not sure) of re-establishing trust is to establish new social interactions, probably more personal and less complex. The example I'm thinking of is the emergence of organised crime in Sicily out of informal relationships between citizens who can't count on the state for protection or justice. Or the emergence of feudal contracts between a leader and his subordinates, where the old Roman system of tax collection and provincial administration had broken down (in some cases long after Rome had left the area - polities like Soissons ran the Roman administrative model into the ground until the high-personal-trust structure of early feudalism came along and overtook them).

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
We're kind of barreling toward this reality in pockets of the western world. Where I live in the US (wealthy blue state, not rural Alabama, don't get your hopes up) you pretty much can't do fair business at a fair price without a personal reference or prior business relationship. And in some of the smaller wealthier towns you can see this kind of behavior start to creep into local government. Of course this is a far cry from not being able to rely on the police but it's definitely movement in that direction.
- foolinaround 6y ago
  ? Where I live in the US (wealthy blue state, not rural Alabama, don't get your hopes up) you pretty much can't do fair business at a fair price without a personal reference or prior business relationship. Are you able to share an anecdote on this?

misterbwong 6y ago

Sounds overly-simplistic but the solution is to build trust again. Unfortunately, the incentives that rule our society are pushing us away from this. We need to align incentives properly if we're going to have any hope of building trust again. ex: 1. The internet, as a technology, is amazing but functions as a possible bullhorn for everyone, without filter. It does not reward the best possible or most positive idea, only the one that grabs the most attention. 2. Shock and outrage drive the clicks/views/attention and everyone gets paid on these metrics. 3. Social media companies thrive on and optimize for attention metrics. The longer you use them, at the expense of things like participating in your community and building relationships, the more "successful" they are and the more $$$ they get 4. Society has moved towards more specialized play and communities. We participate in fewer and fewer activities where we just randomly encounter strangers. 5. Our current election system rewards divisiveness because it drives turnout. The candidate that can do the best job doesn't win-the candidate that can get the most votes does. Possibly unpopular view: Encouraging religious participation would go a long way to help. Whether you believe or do not, religion helps align society away from purely individualistic pursuits and more towards a "corporate good".

iso1631 6y ago
> Possibly unpopular view: Encouraging religious participation would go a long way to help. Whether you believe or do not, religion helps align society away from purely individualistic pursuits and more towards a "corporate good". How does that work out in 3rd world countries where there's high levels of religious membership and high levels of angry young men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun... "Is religion important in your daily life" There seems to be a correlation between countries with corrupt/untrusted governments and high religious importance. Compare the Corruption Perceptions Index 2019 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index] with importance of religion [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_coun...] And you don't get an exact line, but there's certainly a trend there. Those with high corruption and relatively low religion are ex Soviet/Commumist (Azerbajan, Ukraine, Russia, Vietnam, Bulgaria, Hungary, Belarus, Cuba have <50% religion and >50 corrupt) There's always outliers, like Singapore (70% religious but only 15 corrupt / 85 notcorrupt), but there's a trend https://i.imgur.com/oFiAbAN.png https://i.imgur.com/oFiAbAN.png

bsenftner 6y ago

A method to address mistrust is to initiate "virtue circles": do people unrequested favors, without expectation of any return. Just do it; it actually feels good. And it is infectious. Others start doing it too, and double so when you subtly exhibit the joy of helping others without any expectations. Once more than 3 people in any social circle start this type of positive interaction, a positive culture shift occurs in the social group. It is quite amazing how fast this transition happens, as if people are waiting for an excuse to be better with others.

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
And make sure there is space for people to do this, and reward it where possible. Companies are moving more and more towards metrics, which means the nice guy that helps everyone out but isn't as great with his metrics gets screwed, vs. the asshole who optimizes only for the metrics while screwing everyone over gets ahead. Once the nice guy has seen this happen over and over, even the nicest person breaks, gives in, and starts playing by the rules of the system, which by design incentivize working towards the measurable goals.
- bsenftner 6y ago
  "It's all about the incentives" - Steven D. Levitt
jrexilius 6y ago
Very much this. I would amplify it a bit and say talk to real humans in real life (not through a screen). Be a good neighbor, smile and greet people, help strangers. It sounds trite, but I think its the best path. A persons physical community is more important that twitter (or HN for that matter). Culture is made from the choices and shared knowledge of individuals. Being open to others is a prerequisite to influencing change. Accepting imperfections and poor decissions in others is a prerequisite to improving things. I don't see a magical switch that can be flipped to suddenly change a culture, nor do I see secret cabals controling us from the shadows, so no help from the illuminati or whatever.. It's the choices we make and the views we hold about our fellow citizens, and those are better in real-life than on-screen.

tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago

Putting in extra effort to actively demonstrate trustworthiness. That means when leaders are speaking, they need to monitor how their words are perceived, and resolve misunderstandings quickly. Also, overcommunicate and share evidence, and be honest and direct.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]