9 ms·

Gabe Newell on brain-computer interface technology

133 points by sp3n 6y ago

johnnybaptist 6y ago
big fan of his point that the technology is moving so fast that it doesn't make sense to lock-in and go mass market yet
- VikingCoder 6y ago
  This sounds like the spaceship problem. Whenever you build a spaceship to take people to another planet, it will be passed by a later ship which was built to go faster.
  - skocznymroczny 6y ago
    Reminds me of my games of Civilization. Should I spend few more turns to build additional engines to my spaceship, or should I launch it now and risk being overtaken by a faster ship.
    - ghostbrainalpha 6y ago
      In real life its so much more complicated than that. Because choosing to "send ship now" will result in huge amounts of progress in overcoming obstacles you could not have known about until you actual began the project. It seems like the answer is always send out a test ship as fast as possible, knowing that it will absolutely be overtaken by a ship with more engines AND the knowledge gain from the first ship.
- LeifCarrotson 6y ago
  I don't think that's quite right - it's more that they're a lab and not a product manufacturer, so they can't decide to go mass-market. Even if they decided that they want to go public with a virtual keyboard/mouse/controller and virtual heads-up display that you use by wearing an electrode net, the current team would not be able to make that pivot. End users won't be debugging Labview sketches, spending weeks training a neural network to recognize virtual keystrokes, or shaving spots on their scalp. Personally, I expect that the V1 product here is approximately just that: a game controller. A few buttons, a pointer, maybe a little haptic feedback. It would be great for me if it supported text input and output faster than a keyboard and terminal, but I don't think that's likely to happen in an early version. Even less likely is that we're going to jump straight to The Matrix. Valve needs to admit that, and be happy with a limited version, instead of letting it fizzle out in the lab.
bwood 6y ago
All the talk of implants makes me wonder what's possible without a direct physical link to the brain. Like using an EEG to measure brain signals and transform them into instructions, images, etc. Here's some research where they use the EEG to train a model that reconstructs what people are seeing in their visual cortex [0] All the reconstructions are super low resolution, but I wonder how much better they can get? I'd be much more open to brain-computer interfaces if it didn't involve drilling through my skull. [0] https://scitechdaily.com/image-reconstruction-from-human-brain-waves-in-real-time-video/ https://scitechdaily.com/image-reconstruction-from-human-bra...
- malwarebytess 6y ago
  Tangentially related, but I wanted to post an article and a paper. I remember hearing way back around 2010 that Valve was messing around with BCI's. Valve has as recently as 2019 talked about EEG's and gaming [0]. Also recall reading about similar concepts over a decade ago. [1] [0] https://venturebeat.com/2019/03/24/valve-psychologist-explores-controlling-games-directly-with-your-brain/ https://venturebeat.com/2019/03/24/valve-psychologist-explor... [1] https://vpa.sabanciuniv.edu/phpBB2/vpa_views.php?s=4&serial=29 https://vpa.sabanciuniv.edu/phpBB2/vpa_views.php?s=4&serial=...
- bognition 6y ago
  Most if not all of the very interesting signals are in the 100hz - 10Khz range. These signals are also very low voltage so. Add in that the skulls acts as a low pass filter and you end up in a situation where you just will not be able to recover the information needed to decode what the brain is doing at the required resolution. You can use ECoG which is like EEG but placed on under dura-mater (a protective bag around the brain) but this is also highly invasive. Also the spatial resolution is pretty bad. You can get a hundred or so sensors in a few square centimeters.
  - PH01 6y ago
    What signals do you mean? Brain waves measured in EEG typically range from 0.5 Hz and above.
nabla9 6y ago
It will be horrible when you suddenly can't afford to subscribe your brain extensions. It will be like severe brain damage. Imagine living only half-life.
- pugworthy 6y ago
  Reduced to a life of just using a crowbar and not talking t anyone. But all jokes aside, it could be brain damage, but drug addiction might be a better analogy. It could be something that takes time for neuroplasticity to repair or correct.
- redwall_hp 6y ago
  That's a recurring thing in Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Outside of the protagonist, most people need a costly antirejection drug for the augmentations that they're societally pressured to have. Because they're otherwise uncompetitive in their work.
offtop5 6y ago
This scares me a bit. Let's say you have certain nero indicators which indicate person X may do Y . Do you we then minority report lock up people. At the same time , it's going to be amazing for people in a coma or unable to communicate. We could have a fantastic amazing world, where we effectively live forever via some type of matrix like interface.
- VRay 6y ago
  We're already there on foreign soil with Palantir's monitoring software. You don't need to read people's brains to invasively spy on them and arrest them without traditional probable cause
- swalsh 6y ago
  Worse yet, while the government may be banned from looking at this data intrusively. We're likely to freely give it away to a few large tech companies. Without limits on their use, their power will only continue to grow. To me the primary issue of our day at this moment, is we have no users bill of rights. We are forced to use the services of large tech companies to participate in modern life yet there are few restrictions on their powers. It's bad enough when it's our written thoughts. But the idea that it can be my unwritten thoughts too... that scares the heck out of me.
  - offtop5 6y ago
    You have to just be careful who gets your data. The less you use social media the happier you'll generally be. No matter what you say the context around it can change and your life destroyed with it. Breaking out of the social media matrix has been one of my best decisions, I was able to really live in 2019. Made tons of friends as well as a few partners. All of this happened in this place called reality.
  - Rastonbury 6y ago
    Imagine targeting advertising based on a certain state of mind yikes
    - 6y ago
Minor49er 6y ago
I thought that it was interesting that Gabe was using The Matrix as a comparison for BCIs since that movie was a warning about what this kind of tech could bring, but he did express a lot of concern around more real-world ramifications around what this technology could bring if it wasn't properly used or secured. What he was describing then reminded me more of the movie Strange Days where people would use neural connectors to record and play back experiences from others, but amplifying the signal too much would result in scrambled neurons.
- corysama 6y ago
  Also reminds of "Better Than Life" from a cheesy, teen-sci-fi Shadowrun novel. The story starts out assuming Strange Days-style neural recording and playback is a commonplace consumer good. But, then quickly gets into highly edited experiences, generated experiences, and eventually into overwhelming, drug-like experiences.
gnramires 6y ago
One of the things I wish the most technologically is simply being able to record my thoughts. Sometimes in the middle of a stream of thought going back and putting it on paper, taking notes disrupts the process somewhat. Also obviously translating visual imagination and recollection is more difficult (more for someone that wasn't trained artistically). My memory is imperfect too and I've forgotten a few ideas I thought were amazing because I didn't write them down at the right time. I, for one, welcome the mind-reading devices. I'm sure it'll be limited by physical contact so I'm not much worried about some science fiction scenarios. However, the implications for police are indeed worrisome, enough it should warrant specific legislation as soon as possible (i.e. non-consent mind reading should be made a grave crime, and a war crime, as soon as the technology is available)
Justsignedup 6y ago
Heh. Remember back in the day when pacemakers were being hacked remotely because admin passwords weren't even changed from the default, on top of outdated wireless protocols? Oh right that's today! Hardware makers often aren't good at software, not to mention software updates. And even that gets wonky, like when Microsoft update got hijacked. Point is, if we can't get IoT 100% right, or even 90% right, how can we trust IoT with physical interfaces into our bodies? That's the problem. And then what happens if the company who made your implant goes out of business? What do you do when those updates stop? Look at cellphones, supporting a cellphone for 2 years is too much for most hardware makers, they rather never update it. Point is, even if the tech is 100% possible, we're way too far from business setups that allow for this to happen.
- brundolf 6y ago
  And that's not even getting into the privacy aspect. I, for one, reserve no excitement whatsoever for a world where we can interface directly with computers. I'm just hoping that unlike smartphones, it remains viably optional.
- matz1 6y ago
  The trick is I never expect anything to be 100% right, or even 90% right. Even if they promise to be 100% right. Either accept that it can broke or always have a backup plan. >then what happens if the company who made your implant goes out of business? The company goes out of business doesn't always mean the product stop working anymore. If the product stop working then I'll look for removal/replacement.
- a_wild_dandan 6y ago
  These are all valid worries, but they all have the same fundamental solutions as current products. > if we can't get IoT 100% right, or even 90% right, how can we trust IoT with physical interfaces into our bodies? Trust is a risk-reward calculus for any product, whether it's BCI, the microcontrollers in your car, or the (hopefully uninfected) produce in your supermarket. Many folks will find the BCI value outweighs the risks for some feature set that matters to them. > And then what happens if the company who made your implant goes out of business? What do you do when those updates stop? Certain applications will have to be designed and evaluated with longevity or long-term support in mind. You don't need that when talking about cellphones. You do for today's pacemakers.
Seanambers 6y ago
Whoever added that background soundtrack should be shot.
- tpoacher 6y ago
  Yeah I thought it was interfering with the interview too.
johnnybaptist 6y ago
I work at OpenBCI. It's been great getting to work with Gabe and the Valve team. Can't overstate how unique they are as partners on a project like this. Also cool to see OpenBCI (sortof) in the top 10 today :) Happy to answer any questions people have about OpenBCI https://openbci.com/ https://openbci.com/
- andygmb 6y ago
  In the area of BCI, what is the most "Science-Fictiony" thing you have seen made into a reality?
  - johnnybaptist 6y ago
    I referenced this in my other reply, but this is one of the ones that blew my mind: https://www.washington.edu/news/2019/07/01/play-a-video-game-using-only-your-mind/ https://www.washington.edu/news/2019/07/01/play-a-video-game...
- mentos 6y ago
  I often wonder about the parallels between reverse engineering games using memory inspection software like 'cheat engine' to trying to reverse engineer the brain using a BCI. For example if you want to find the memory address for your guns ammo you search for a start value in memory say '30', get all addresses that match that value, fire the gun and then find which of those addresses now have the value 29. Continue the search until you narrow down the memory address to just one. Then you can use that address to query the ammo for a 3rd party program that alerts you that you're low on ammo or even write to the memory address to give yourself more ammo.. Obviously the brain isn't as discrete but I feel like if I could play around with a BCI I could find fun signals for when I'm thinking about 'apples' vs 'oranges' and slowly build up an interface. Have you been able to use a BCI to detect when you're thinking about something specific?
  - throwaway3699 6y ago
    I thought about buying an OpenBCI kit to try something like this, but I think there's just not enough sensor resolution to get anything meaningful in the way you're suggesting. The strongest signals by far come from muscle movement, too, so that tends to be the basis of interfaces. (FWIW: absolutely not an expert)
pugworthy 6y ago
HP is getting into basic (compared to GabeN's ideas) work in this area with the Omnicept VR headset. It looks like eye tracking, pupillometry sensor, heart rate, and a face camera. Not direct neurotechnology but none the less using data to better understand and adapt to the user's response to VR. https://www8.hp.com/us/en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset-omnicept-edition.html https://www8.hp.com/us/en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset-omnicept-e...
pizza 6y ago
It's pretty funny to me that the photo of Mr. Ambinder is now the best evidence I know that Valve is still working on TF2
tartoran 6y ago
> the experiences that you will have are things that you will be created and edited for you [..] > sleep will now become an app that you will run where you say I need this much sleep, I need this much REM I find this to go in a bizarre awkward direction. We as humans have self regulating capabilities that are to be tapped with some "self work". Is that a bad thing? Why are we trying to change that and create an app to control bodily functions? Our brain is perfectly capable of handling that and has been for millions of years in our ancestors
- rowanG077 6y ago
  Please tell me in great detail how I can go to sleep within 15 minuten of laying in bed. I'm very open to self work.
  - tartoran 6y ago
    You need to learn to wind down. You can't expect to use your brain intensely and then shut off. But you can start by lowering the light, relaxing, stop using electronic devices, etc. (though listening to something unexciting does induce sleep). I also induce sleep by forced repeated yawing. Every couple of forced yawns trigger a real one, and with that some sleepiness. Another exercise I do is to imagine I lift my arms/legs up and let them fall by my side, helps me to relax my nervous system. I've done some meditation in the past and it helped as well but I don't actively do it before bed but you can absolutely try. Another thing that may or may not work for you is white/pink/brown noise. I prefer quiet if I could get it, sometimes that is impossible, e.g. having a window facing car traffic so in that case white noise can reduce the intensity of sudden sounds. So there is no formula but a bunch of habits really do help.
  - ghostbrainalpha 6y ago
    My wife has sever insomnia and is having more success with this than she did with prescription sleep aids. https://choosemuse.com/ https://choosemuse.com/ Being able to run "sleep" like its an app on your phone and directly control your brain would be life changing for us. I really hope it happens in our lifetime.
bullen 6y ago
I think VR could use non-fresnel lenses and better ways to adapt your vision in the headset, ironically the DK1&2 had lenscups which now are found in zero headsets. I keep my old glasses that are smaller to be able to fit them in my vive, but that makes development inconcievable: Remove terminal/monitor glasses and put on old glasses and then the headset every time I need to test something in VR. Nope I'm not doing that. Also why are the media business still adding fake laughter and annoying background music to everything they touch?
- gen3 6y ago
  I found out last week that there are prescription inserts for headsets. I’ve yet to get mine, but as someone who wears glasses the concept sounds awesome. https://vroptician.com/prescription-lens-inserts/valve-index/ https://vroptician.com/prescription-lens-inserts/valve-index...
  - bullen 6y ago
    Sure, but on the DK 1&2 I made my own lens corrections in the cups, much cheaper and future proof (what I thought, since I can move the lenses to newer headsets) and then Valve and everyone else listened to the wrong lens guy and now everyone has to buy single serving solutions for the rest of existence + get aweful god rays!?
    - gen3 6y ago
      I went ahead and ordered them later that day. I had seen the custom options, but since I don't have a 3D printer/have awful eyesight, I wasn't sure it was worth the hassle of trial and error/poor fitting lenses. I am under the assumption that they will not have an effect on the visual quality, but I can update you if you are interested. I never tried the DK1/2, I've only really put time into the Vive and Index. I think it would be neat if Valve made it so you can more easily pop the lenses in and out, allowing you to pick what you need prescription wise (and in your case fresnel vs non-fresnel). I am unsure how well that would work, since the focal distance between headsets could change.
5440 6y ago
I do a significant amount of breakthrough device fda/eu regulatory work in the BCI area. For those interested, its worth reading the FDA guidance: https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/implanted-brain-computer-interface-bci-devices-patients-paralysis-or-amputation-non-clinical-testing https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidan....
- 5440 6y ago
  Regarding security, I think people would be really freaked out by the scope of attacks. One infusion pump I worked on this year was succesfully attacked over 200 times.
  - throwsaways212a 6y ago
    That sounds interesting, is this a case of 200 vulnerabilities being found or 200 documented cases of attacks against (production?) devices?
marmalar 6y ago
this is a very appropriate thing for Valve to be working on considering their logo
- ghostbrainalpha 6y ago
  The logo may not be a coincidence, but more an expression of Gabe Newell's life focus.
spike021 6y ago
I'm not a huge anime person, but there's one I've watched that seems a bit relevant. In _Accel World_, they wear this thing on their neck called a "Neurolink" and basically are able to connect to things like the Internet or private networks (school, home, hospital) wirelessly with it. I believe it takes over signals coming to and from the brain. But they also have a wired connection mode so they can do that or do a special direct, wired connection with someone they are close to. The ramifications of access like that are described surprisingly well in the show. For instance, two close friends (they're in a relationship but young enough I'd just consider them close friends) use the direct wired connection feature because they feel comfortable enough doing so. But at some point one of them decides to use that private access to plant a virus of sorts. While the purpose is irrelevant here, it does show how brain connections, especially between people, can become increasingly vulnerable. The main plot point of the anime though, is this game application that can be installed to the Neurolink, and basically it has the ability to also wipe away or hide memories. While what Newell is talking about is still a ways away, it's interesting to consider exactly what we may need to be worried about when the time comes.
- accounted 6y ago
  There's a better version of that in Ghost in the Shell SAC. You could have a cyber brain and connect to networks which could include websites, devices, other people, and even have a direct wired connection too.
Old_Paris 6y ago
That looks like an awful over complicated way of performing a lobotomy.
meee 6y ago
The link below shows up on occasion and is a good reminder that not only do we need to keep up with physical/practical trust but philosophical as well. https://marshallbrain.com/manna https://marshallbrain.com/manna (It explores implants and using them vs. being used by them.)
Geee 6y ago
Imagine getting a cookie popup every time you look at something.
- m463 6y ago
  https://borderlands.fandom.com/wiki/Adbug https://borderlands.fandom.com/wiki/Adbug "While technically hostile, Adbugs do not directly attack Vault Hunters. Instead, they follow their targeted Vault Hunter around and beam a semi-transparent advertisement at them, which is placed in a random position on the field of vision, obscuring part of the field of view."
m463 6y ago
This is the kind of technology that needs ironclad opt-in privacy. Valve collects lots of data - that you can't turn off - and doesn't let you opt out. (see if you can ask them to stop collecting time played in games or "achievements" or whatever)
piracy1 6y ago
Gabe was like, Oh, you want half life? Oh, you'll get it, don't worry.
- fyver 6y ago
  So, Half Life 3 confirmed?

133 points by sp3n 6y ago

johnnybaptist 6y ago

big fan of his point that the technology is moving so fast that it doesn't make sense to lock-in and go mass market yet

VikingCoder 6y ago
This sounds like the spaceship problem. Whenever you build a spaceship to take people to another planet, it will be passed by a later ship which was built to go faster.
- skocznymroczny 6y ago
  Reminds me of my games of Civilization. Should I spend few more turns to build additional engines to my spaceship, or should I launch it now and risk being overtaken by a faster ship.
  - ghostbrainalpha 6y ago
    In real life its so much more complicated than that. Because choosing to "send ship now" will result in huge amounts of progress in overcoming obstacles you could not have known about until you actual began the project. It seems like the answer is always send out a test ship as fast as possible, knowing that it will absolutely be overtaken by a ship with more engines AND the knowledge gain from the first ship.
LeifCarrotson 6y ago
I don't think that's quite right - it's more that they're a lab and not a product manufacturer, so they can't decide to go mass-market. Even if they decided that they want to go public with a virtual keyboard/mouse/controller and virtual heads-up display that you use by wearing an electrode net, the current team would not be able to make that pivot. End users won't be debugging Labview sketches, spending weeks training a neural network to recognize virtual keystrokes, or shaving spots on their scalp. Personally, I expect that the V1 product here is approximately just that: a game controller. A few buttons, a pointer, maybe a little haptic feedback. It would be great for me if it supported text input and output faster than a keyboard and terminal, but I don't think that's likely to happen in an early version. Even less likely is that we're going to jump straight to The Matrix. Valve needs to admit that, and be happy with a limited version, instead of letting it fizzle out in the lab.

bwood 6y ago

All the talk of implants makes me wonder what's possible without a direct physical link to the brain. Like using an EEG to measure brain signals and transform them into instructions, images, etc. Here's some research where they use the EEG to train a model that reconstructs what people are seeing in their visual cortex [0] All the reconstructions are super low resolution, but I wonder how much better they can get? I'd be much more open to brain-computer interfaces if it didn't involve drilling through my skull. [0] https://scitechdaily.com/image-reconstruction-from-human-brain-waves-in-real-time-video/ https://scitechdaily.com/image-reconstruction-from-human-bra...

malwarebytess 6y ago
Tangentially related, but I wanted to post an article and a paper. I remember hearing way back around 2010 that Valve was messing around with BCI's. Valve has as recently as 2019 talked about EEG's and gaming [0]. Also recall reading about similar concepts over a decade ago. [1] [0] https://venturebeat.com/2019/03/24/valve-psychologist-explores-controlling-games-directly-with-your-brain/ https://venturebeat.com/2019/03/24/valve-psychologist-explor... [1] https://vpa.sabanciuniv.edu/phpBB2/vpa_views.php?s=4&serial=29 https://vpa.sabanciuniv.edu/phpBB2/vpa_views.php?s=4&serial=...
bognition 6y ago
Most if not all of the very interesting signals are in the 100hz - 10Khz range. These signals are also very low voltage so. Add in that the skulls acts as a low pass filter and you end up in a situation where you just will not be able to recover the information needed to decode what the brain is doing at the required resolution. You can use ECoG which is like EEG but placed on under dura-mater (a protective bag around the brain) but this is also highly invasive. Also the spatial resolution is pretty bad. You can get a hundred or so sensors in a few square centimeters.
- PH01 6y ago
  What signals do you mean? Brain waves measured in EEG typically range from 0.5 Hz and above.

nabla9 6y ago

It will be horrible when you suddenly can't afford to subscribe your brain extensions. It will be like severe brain damage. Imagine living only half-life.

pugworthy 6y ago
Reduced to a life of just using a crowbar and not talking t anyone. But all jokes aside, it could be brain damage, but drug addiction might be a better analogy. It could be something that takes time for neuroplasticity to repair or correct.
redwall_hp 6y ago
That's a recurring thing in Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Outside of the protagonist, most people need a costly antirejection drug for the augmentations that they're societally pressured to have. Because they're otherwise uncompetitive in their work.

offtop5 6y ago

This scares me a bit. Let's say you have certain nero indicators which indicate person X may do Y . Do you we then minority report lock up people. At the same time , it's going to be amazing for people in a coma or unable to communicate. We could have a fantastic amazing world, where we effectively live forever via some type of matrix like interface.

VRay 6y ago
We're already there on foreign soil with Palantir's monitoring software. You don't need to read people's brains to invasively spy on them and arrest them without traditional probable cause
swalsh 6y ago
Worse yet, while the government may be banned from looking at this data intrusively. We're likely to freely give it away to a few large tech companies. Without limits on their use, their power will only continue to grow. To me the primary issue of our day at this moment, is we have no users bill of rights. We are forced to use the services of large tech companies to participate in modern life yet there are few restrictions on their powers. It's bad enough when it's our written thoughts. But the idea that it can be my unwritten thoughts too... that scares the heck out of me.
- offtop5 6y ago
  You have to just be careful who gets your data. The less you use social media the happier you'll generally be. No matter what you say the context around it can change and your life destroyed with it. Breaking out of the social media matrix has been one of my best decisions, I was able to really live in 2019. Made tons of friends as well as a few partners. All of this happened in this place called reality.
- Rastonbury 6y ago
  Imagine targeting advertising based on a certain state of mind yikes
  - 6y ago

Minor49er 6y ago

I thought that it was interesting that Gabe was using The Matrix as a comparison for BCIs since that movie was a warning about what this kind of tech could bring, but he did express a lot of concern around more real-world ramifications around what this technology could bring if it wasn't properly used or secured. What he was describing then reminded me more of the movie Strange Days where people would use neural connectors to record and play back experiences from others, but amplifying the signal too much would result in scrambled neurons.

corysama 6y ago
Also reminds of "Better Than Life" from a cheesy, teen-sci-fi Shadowrun novel. The story starts out assuming Strange Days-style neural recording and playback is a commonplace consumer good. But, then quickly gets into highly edited experiences, generated experiences, and eventually into overwhelming, drug-like experiences.

gnramires 6y ago

One of the things I wish the most technologically is simply being able to record my thoughts. Sometimes in the middle of a stream of thought going back and putting it on paper, taking notes disrupts the process somewhat. Also obviously translating visual imagination and recollection is more difficult (more for someone that wasn't trained artistically). My memory is imperfect too and I've forgotten a few ideas I thought were amazing because I didn't write them down at the right time. I, for one, welcome the mind-reading devices. I'm sure it'll be limited by physical contact so I'm not much worried about some science fiction scenarios. However, the implications for police are indeed worrisome, enough it should warrant specific legislation as soon as possible (i.e. non-consent mind reading should be made a grave crime, and a war crime, as soon as the technology is available)

Justsignedup 6y ago

Heh. Remember back in the day when pacemakers were being hacked remotely because admin passwords weren't even changed from the default, on top of outdated wireless protocols? Oh right that's today! Hardware makers often aren't good at software, not to mention software updates. And even that gets wonky, like when Microsoft update got hijacked. Point is, if we can't get IoT 100% right, or even 90% right, how can we trust IoT with physical interfaces into our bodies? That's the problem. And then what happens if the company who made your implant goes out of business? What do you do when those updates stop? Look at cellphones, supporting a cellphone for 2 years is too much for most hardware makers, they rather never update it. Point is, even if the tech is 100% possible, we're way too far from business setups that allow for this to happen.

brundolf 6y ago
And that's not even getting into the privacy aspect. I, for one, reserve no excitement whatsoever for a world where we can interface directly with computers. I'm just hoping that unlike smartphones, it remains viably optional.
matz1 6y ago
The trick is I never expect anything to be 100% right, or even 90% right. Even if they promise to be 100% right. Either accept that it can broke or always have a backup plan. >then what happens if the company who made your implant goes out of business? The company goes out of business doesn't always mean the product stop working anymore. If the product stop working then I'll look for removal/replacement.
a_wild_dandan 6y ago
These are all valid worries, but they all have the same fundamental solutions as current products. > if we can't get IoT 100% right, or even 90% right, how can we trust IoT with physical interfaces into our bodies? Trust is a risk-reward calculus for any product, whether it's BCI, the microcontrollers in your car, or the (hopefully uninfected) produce in your supermarket. Many folks will find the BCI value outweighs the risks for some feature set that matters to them. > And then what happens if the company who made your implant goes out of business? What do you do when those updates stop? Certain applications will have to be designed and evaluated with longevity or long-term support in mind. You don't need that when talking about cellphones. You do for today's pacemakers.

Seanambers 6y ago

Whoever added that background soundtrack should be shot.

tpoacher 6y ago
Yeah I thought it was interfering with the interview too.

johnnybaptist 6y ago

I work at OpenBCI. It's been great getting to work with Gabe and the Valve team. Can't overstate how unique they are as partners on a project like this. Also cool to see OpenBCI (sortof) in the top 10 today :) Happy to answer any questions people have about OpenBCI https://openbci.com/ https://openbci.com/

andygmb 6y ago
In the area of BCI, what is the most "Science-Fictiony" thing you have seen made into a reality?
- johnnybaptist 6y ago
  I referenced this in my other reply, but this is one of the ones that blew my mind: https://www.washington.edu/news/2019/07/01/play-a-video-game-using-only-your-mind/ https://www.washington.edu/news/2019/07/01/play-a-video-game...
mentos 6y ago
I often wonder about the parallels between reverse engineering games using memory inspection software like 'cheat engine' to trying to reverse engineer the brain using a BCI. For example if you want to find the memory address for your guns ammo you search for a start value in memory say '30', get all addresses that match that value, fire the gun and then find which of those addresses now have the value 29. Continue the search until you narrow down the memory address to just one. Then you can use that address to query the ammo for a 3rd party program that alerts you that you're low on ammo or even write to the memory address to give yourself more ammo.. Obviously the brain isn't as discrete but I feel like if I could play around with a BCI I could find fun signals for when I'm thinking about 'apples' vs 'oranges' and slowly build up an interface. Have you been able to use a BCI to detect when you're thinking about something specific?
- throwaway3699 6y ago
  I thought about buying an OpenBCI kit to try something like this, but I think there's just not enough sensor resolution to get anything meaningful in the way you're suggesting. The strongest signals by far come from muscle movement, too, so that tends to be the basis of interfaces. (FWIW: absolutely not an expert)

pugworthy 6y ago

HP is getting into basic (compared to GabeN's ideas) work in this area with the Omnicept VR headset. It looks like eye tracking, pupillometry sensor, heart rate, and a face camera. Not direct neurotechnology but none the less using data to better understand and adapt to the user's response to VR. https://www8.hp.com/us/en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset-omnicept-edition.html https://www8.hp.com/us/en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset-omnicept-e...

pizza 6y ago

It's pretty funny to me that the photo of Mr. Ambinder is now the best evidence I know that Valve is still working on TF2

tartoran 6y ago

> the experiences that you will have are things that you will be created and edited for you [..] > sleep will now become an app that you will run where you say I need this much sleep, I need this much REM I find this to go in a bizarre awkward direction. We as humans have self regulating capabilities that are to be tapped with some "self work". Is that a bad thing? Why are we trying to change that and create an app to control bodily functions? Our brain is perfectly capable of handling that and has been for millions of years in our ancestors

rowanG077 6y ago
Please tell me in great detail how I can go to sleep within 15 minuten of laying in bed. I'm very open to self work.
- tartoran 6y ago
  You need to learn to wind down. You can't expect to use your brain intensely and then shut off. But you can start by lowering the light, relaxing, stop using electronic devices, etc. (though listening to something unexciting does induce sleep). I also induce sleep by forced repeated yawing. Every couple of forced yawns trigger a real one, and with that some sleepiness. Another exercise I do is to imagine I lift my arms/legs up and let them fall by my side, helps me to relax my nervous system. I've done some meditation in the past and it helped as well but I don't actively do it before bed but you can absolutely try. Another thing that may or may not work for you is white/pink/brown noise. I prefer quiet if I could get it, sometimes that is impossible, e.g. having a window facing car traffic so in that case white noise can reduce the intensity of sudden sounds. So there is no formula but a bunch of habits really do help.
- ghostbrainalpha 6y ago
  My wife has sever insomnia and is having more success with this than she did with prescription sleep aids. https://choosemuse.com/ https://choosemuse.com/ Being able to run "sleep" like its an app on your phone and directly control your brain would be life changing for us. I really hope it happens in our lifetime.

bullen 6y ago

I think VR could use non-fresnel lenses and better ways to adapt your vision in the headset, ironically the DK1&2 had lenscups which now are found in zero headsets. I keep my old glasses that are smaller to be able to fit them in my vive, but that makes development inconcievable: Remove terminal/monitor glasses and put on old glasses and then the headset every time I need to test something in VR. Nope I'm not doing that. Also why are the media business still adding fake laughter and annoying background music to everything they touch?

gen3 6y ago
I found out last week that there are prescription inserts for headsets. I’ve yet to get mine, but as someone who wears glasses the concept sounds awesome. https://vroptician.com/prescription-lens-inserts/valve-index/ https://vroptician.com/prescription-lens-inserts/valve-index...
- bullen 6y ago
  Sure, but on the DK 1&2 I made my own lens corrections in the cups, much cheaper and future proof (what I thought, since I can move the lenses to newer headsets) and then Valve and everyone else listened to the wrong lens guy and now everyone has to buy single serving solutions for the rest of existence + get aweful god rays!?
  - gen3 6y ago
    I went ahead and ordered them later that day. I had seen the custom options, but since I don't have a 3D printer/have awful eyesight, I wasn't sure it was worth the hassle of trial and error/poor fitting lenses. I am under the assumption that they will not have an effect on the visual quality, but I can update you if you are interested. I never tried the DK1/2, I've only really put time into the Vive and Index. I think it would be neat if Valve made it so you can more easily pop the lenses in and out, allowing you to pick what you need prescription wise (and in your case fresnel vs non-fresnel). I am unsure how well that would work, since the focal distance between headsets could change.

5440 6y ago

I do a significant amount of breakthrough device fda/eu regulatory work in the BCI area. For those interested, its worth reading the FDA guidance: https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidance-documents/implanted-brain-computer-interface-bci-devices-patients-paralysis-or-amputation-non-clinical-testing https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-information/search-fda-guidan....

5440 6y ago
Regarding security, I think people would be really freaked out by the scope of attacks. One infusion pump I worked on this year was succesfully attacked over 200 times.
- throwsaways212a 6y ago
  That sounds interesting, is this a case of 200 vulnerabilities being found or 200 documented cases of attacks against (production?) devices?

marmalar 6y ago

this is a very appropriate thing for Valve to be working on considering their logo

ghostbrainalpha 6y ago
The logo may not be a coincidence, but more an expression of Gabe Newell's life focus.

spike021 6y ago

I'm not a huge anime person, but there's one I've watched that seems a bit relevant. In _Accel World_, they wear this thing on their neck called a "Neurolink" and basically are able to connect to things like the Internet or private networks (school, home, hospital) wirelessly with it. I believe it takes over signals coming to and from the brain. But they also have a wired connection mode so they can do that or do a special direct, wired connection with someone they are close to. The ramifications of access like that are described surprisingly well in the show. For instance, two close friends (they're in a relationship but young enough I'd just consider them close friends) use the direct wired connection feature because they feel comfortable enough doing so. But at some point one of them decides to use that private access to plant a virus of sorts. While the purpose is irrelevant here, it does show how brain connections, especially between people, can become increasingly vulnerable. The main plot point of the anime though, is this game application that can be installed to the Neurolink, and basically it has the ability to also wipe away or hide memories. While what Newell is talking about is still a ways away, it's interesting to consider exactly what we may need to be worried about when the time comes.

accounted 6y ago
There's a better version of that in Ghost in the Shell SAC. You could have a cyber brain and connect to networks which could include websites, devices, other people, and even have a direct wired connection too.

Old_Paris 6y ago

That looks like an awful over complicated way of performing a lobotomy.

meee 6y ago

The link below shows up on occasion and is a good reminder that not only do we need to keep up with physical/practical trust but philosophical as well. https://marshallbrain.com/manna https://marshallbrain.com/manna (It explores implants and using them vs. being used by them.)

Geee 6y ago

Imagine getting a cookie popup every time you look at something.

m463 6y ago
https://borderlands.fandom.com/wiki/Adbug https://borderlands.fandom.com/wiki/Adbug "While technically hostile, Adbugs do not directly attack Vault Hunters. Instead, they follow their targeted Vault Hunter around and beam a semi-transparent advertisement at them, which is placed in a random position on the field of vision, obscuring part of the field of view."

m463 6y ago

This is the kind of technology that needs ironclad opt-in privacy. Valve collects lots of data - that you can't turn off - and doesn't let you opt out. (see if you can ask them to stop collecting time played in games or "achievements" or whatever)

piracy1 6y ago

Gabe was like, Oh, you want half life? Oh, you'll get it, don't worry.

fyver 6y ago
So, Half Life 3 confirmed?