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> strong collective identity This makes a society weaker - it's effectively a monoculture that restricts the data available to the decision makers. It also re

> strong collective identity This makes a society weaker - it's effectively a monoculture that restricts the data available to the decision makers. It also reduces a societies ability to innovate in art, culture and eventually technology and science - innovation requires the ability to take an outside view, to be self-critical, and a society that is too busy forging a 'strong collective identity' will make it harder for individuals to do that. It even poisons a societies own understanding of itself and its history, since we have so far failed to come up with good ways of building a 'strong collective identity' without accepting and promoting lies about history.

bluetomcat 6y ago
The Western urge for constantly rethinking and reevaluating history and traditions, for innovations in art and science, does not lead to an inherently stable society in the long run that spans across centuries. The changes themselves introduce new kinds of problems requiring new solutions, and that affects the societal structure in unpredictable ways. Japan and South Korea are western only in a superficial sense, in that they have copied the basic institutional structure of the industrialised West. However, the main forces acting on that structure are rather different, and the main actor is certainly not the "egoistic, cold, self-interested, autonomous individual".
- anovikov 6y ago
  If anything, China is an example of a society NOT stable over long term. Here in the West, we basically had two large disturbances in 2000 years: collapse of Western Roman empire (which wasn't even as bad it they made it look because most economy was in the Eastern part of it, that fared reasonably well through that crisis), and Black Death. As a big big stretch, one can also point at Napoleonic Wars and WWII but neither was nearly as bad, not even comparable to the disturbances Chinese society was going through almost every century in the same period. And their collective identity (or huge population) didn't help them fighting wars either, they miserably lost almost every conflict they got in, even ones with themselves.
  - alphager 6y ago
    > had two large disturbances in 2000 years Your definition of "large disturbance" is pretty narrow. You missed things like the renaissance, the reformation (and subsequent proliferation of non-catholic faiths), the hundred year war, the thirty year war, two world wars, ...
  - YinglingLight 6y ago
    This. The Chinese aren't 'Chinese' from the perspective of a long-term, multi-generational viewer. Not biologically, not societally, not even culturally.
- kybernetikos 6y ago
  > The Western urge for constantly rethinking and reevaluating history and traditions, for innovations in art and science, does not lead to an inherently stable society in the long run that spans across centuries I'm not clear what you're saying here. Are you saying that it would be a good thing if society in western countries were more like what it was 400 years ago? Enormous improvements in science, technology, culture and civil society grew out of that 400 year history, and regressing or remaining static over that 400 years would be a disaster. The only way to have a stable society that spans across centuries is to have a society that can change and incorporate new ideas, technology, people and ways of doing things. It's societies that aren't flexible and strong enough to cope with change that are unable to remain stable over long periods of time.
  - free_rms 6y ago
    China as a nation dealt with 'change' in the form of white men on awesome ships with awesome guns coming and having their way for 100 years. Going from their nadir in WWII to what they are now in 70 years seems awfully adaptable to me.
    - throw0101a 6y ago
      China was at the same level, or higher, in development as Europe in 1600. By 1700, and certainly by 1800, Europe's interest in science, which then led to developments in advances in technology. This technology is what allowed the "white men on awesome ships with awesome guns" to have their way. Perhaps if China was so top-down they could have also developed themselves more. Toby Huff examines this disparity in his books Intellectual Curiosity and the Scientific Revolution. A Global Perspective and The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West. The telescope was embraced in the West, but hardly used (except with a few isolate individuals) in the other major cultures in the 1600s.
      - free_rms 6y ago
        I think it's more about multipolar vs unipolar. The time period you describe includes multiple massive european wars between nation states who were incentivized to improve industrialization, logistics and yes technology. China's periodic bloody uprisings don't create the same incentive, they basically didn't have foreign policy until it came knocking.
- throw0101a 6y ago
  > The Western urge for constantly rethinking and reevaluating history and traditions, for innovations in art and science, does not lead to an inherently stable society in the long run that spans across centuries. A stable society that spans centuries can stagnate. See Imperial China and Japan before Admiral Perry showed up. In 1600, the Chinese (and Moghul India) were probably more advanced than Europe in many respects, but there seemed to be little to no desire for further development. The telescope, which kicked off a revolution in the West, was basically ignored. When the Jesuits showed up in 1595, the China still thought that the Earth was flat: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Ming_Dynasty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Ming_Dynasty_in_Chi... As science developed so did technology, and the European powers were able to basic steam roll over everyone else a century later.
  - anovikov 6y ago
    Fantastic! Compare this utterly bullshit Chinese world "map" from 1609: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Sancai_Tuhui_World_Map.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Sancai_T... With Piri Reis map from 100 years before: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91XW2CEmU4L._AC_SL1500_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91XW2CEmU4L... (which is a part of an atlas, picturing many areas of the world with literally amazing detail and precision) Granted, Piri Reis did an amazing job, even raising a few conspiracy theories on how he did it, but here is the fairly average European map of the world from 1609: https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3200.ct001217r/ https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3200.ct001217r/
BelenusMordred 6y ago
> it's effectively a monoculture that restricts the data available to the decision makers Would you call Singapore a "weak society" with little ability to innovate? It's essentially what GP was describing.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- kybernetikos 6y ago
  In a person, inability to critically self-examine or tolerate criticism from others is a sign of a weak person not a strong person. It's the same in countries. I'm not sure I agree that the GPs description is a good description of Singapore, but to the extent that it is, I believe Singaporean society is weaker for it.
- fakedang 6y ago
  Not GP, but imo Yes. Singapore is the best example of a monoculture in a diverse environment. Systematic rejection of one community and elevation of the other in government, education, military, etc. Not to mention how difficult it is to get citizenship if you're not Chinese in some form. Also where are Singapore's innovations? Apart from building a fancy city, they have done nothing. Many Singaporeans comfortable enough and well off that I know often rush to settle down in Australia or USA or the UK, especially in tech. Why is that? Singapore is a really good magnet for entrepreneurs from other places, but nothing much otherwise. A very artificial place with zero arts and culture - heck, they destroyed their primary language (Cantonese) in schools so as to be cozy with China for business.
lanevorockz 6y ago
> This makes a society weaker - it's effectively a monoculture that restricts the data available to the decision makers. Bingo ! A monoculture is really weak because people that act the same and think the same. It's the reason even though Asia has over 2/3s of world population they are not responsible for 2/3s of all innovation in the world.
- apples_oranges 6y ago
  They make up for it by learning from everyone. They even send their kids all over the world to go to university.
- blackrock 6y ago
  So, it never crossed your mind that racist write people enslaved Asia for hundreds of years? They destroyed the Asian government, drugged the Asian population, and forced financial restitutions on the Asians to pay for their their own enslavement. But yet, here we are. Hundreds of years later, and the Asian countries are finally shaking off their colonial enslavement from the white man. And here you are, claiming that they add nothing to the world’s innovations. It’s just a thought. And maybe something you should consider first before judging others.
  - refurb 6y ago
    China hasn’t been a colony since when? 100 years ago? Then it was Japanese colonialism. So Asian colonialization of other Asians. Then China decided on a political system that stunted their growth for 40 years. Vietnam stunted their growth for 25 years. Yet we blame the white man?
    - blackrock 6y ago
      You seem to think that a society can turn on a dime. And that past historical grievances does not factor into modern day realities.
      - bluGill 6y ago
nicoburns 6y ago
> This makes a society weaker I think there's some truth to this. But rampant individualism also makes society weaker. It reduces a societies ability to collaborate.
- kybernetikos 6y ago
  I probably agree with this, at least to some extent, but if the question is what is the better form of society, I'm not sure how relevant it is. You can have societies that are very community minded and govern them in a free way and with a democracy. You can try to govern very individualistic societies with an autocracy. There's probably an optimum level of accepted dissent in a society, depending on what it wants to achieve, and I tend to think that social democracies come the closest to achieving it, and certainly much closer than most autocracies.
- mcv 6y ago
  As with most things, you need to find a balance between the two. All-or-nothing is rarely a good approach, no matter what you're talking about. Everything taken to extremes turns bad.
- liotier 6y ago
  > rampant individualism also makes society weaker. It reduces a societies ability to collaborate. Let's not mistake diversity for individualism. We can be diverse, yet share overarching ideals - such as living together peacefully and in solidarity.
  - nicoburns 6y ago
    > We can be diverse, yet share overarching ideals - such as living together peacefully and in solidarity. We can, but increasingly I see people arguing that we should forgoe those and determine our actions in society based on our own individual interest and market mechanisms.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      Increasingly I see people argue we should take up a socialist society. Not hard to see why a raise in either of the above would result in the other side getting even more extreme in reaction.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

bluetomcat 6y ago

The Western urge for constantly rethinking and reevaluating history and traditions, for innovations in art and science, does not lead to an inherently stable society in the long run that spans across centuries. The changes themselves introduce new kinds of problems requiring new solutions, and that affects the societal structure in unpredictable ways. Japan and South Korea are western only in a superficial sense, in that they have copied the basic institutional structure of the industrialised West. However, the main forces acting on that structure are rather different, and the main actor is certainly not the "egoistic, cold, self-interested, autonomous individual".

anovikov 6y ago
If anything, China is an example of a society NOT stable over long term. Here in the West, we basically had two large disturbances in 2000 years: collapse of Western Roman empire (which wasn't even as bad it they made it look because most economy was in the Eastern part of it, that fared reasonably well through that crisis), and Black Death. As a big big stretch, one can also point at Napoleonic Wars and WWII but neither was nearly as bad, not even comparable to the disturbances Chinese society was going through almost every century in the same period. And their collective identity (or huge population) didn't help them fighting wars either, they miserably lost almost every conflict they got in, even ones with themselves.
- alphager 6y ago
  > had two large disturbances in 2000 years Your definition of "large disturbance" is pretty narrow. You missed things like the renaissance, the reformation (and subsequent proliferation of non-catholic faiths), the hundred year war, the thirty year war, two world wars, ...
- YinglingLight 6y ago
  This. The Chinese aren't 'Chinese' from the perspective of a long-term, multi-generational viewer. Not biologically, not societally, not even culturally.
kybernetikos 6y ago
> The Western urge for constantly rethinking and reevaluating history and traditions, for innovations in art and science, does not lead to an inherently stable society in the long run that spans across centuries I'm not clear what you're saying here. Are you saying that it would be a good thing if society in western countries were more like what it was 400 years ago? Enormous improvements in science, technology, culture and civil society grew out of that 400 year history, and regressing or remaining static over that 400 years would be a disaster. The only way to have a stable society that spans across centuries is to have a society that can change and incorporate new ideas, technology, people and ways of doing things. It's societies that aren't flexible and strong enough to cope with change that are unable to remain stable over long periods of time.
- free_rms 6y ago
  China as a nation dealt with 'change' in the form of white men on awesome ships with awesome guns coming and having their way for 100 years. Going from their nadir in WWII to what they are now in 70 years seems awfully adaptable to me.
  - throw0101a 6y ago
    China was at the same level, or higher, in development as Europe in 1600. By 1700, and certainly by 1800, Europe's interest in science, which then led to developments in advances in technology. This technology is what allowed the "white men on awesome ships with awesome guns" to have their way. Perhaps if China was so top-down they could have also developed themselves more. Toby Huff examines this disparity in his books Intellectual Curiosity and the Scientific Revolution. A Global Perspective and The Rise of Early Modern Science: Islam, China and the West. The telescope was embraced in the West, but hardly used (except with a few isolate individuals) in the other major cultures in the 1600s.
    - free_rms 6y ago
      I think it's more about multipolar vs unipolar. The time period you describe includes multiple massive european wars between nation states who were incentivized to improve industrialization, logistics and yes technology. China's periodic bloody uprisings don't create the same incentive, they basically didn't have foreign policy until it came knocking.
throw0101a 6y ago
> The Western urge for constantly rethinking and reevaluating history and traditions, for innovations in art and science, does not lead to an inherently stable society in the long run that spans across centuries. A stable society that spans centuries can stagnate. See Imperial China and Japan before Admiral Perry showed up. In 1600, the Chinese (and Moghul India) were probably more advanced than Europe in many respects, but there seemed to be little to no desire for further development. The telescope, which kicked off a revolution in the West, was basically ignored. When the Jesuits showed up in 1595, the China still thought that the Earth was flat: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Ming_Dynasty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth#Ming_Dynasty_in_Chi... As science developed so did technology, and the European powers were able to basic steam roll over everyone else a century later.
- anovikov 6y ago
  Fantastic! Compare this utterly bullshit Chinese world "map" from 1609: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Sancai_Tuhui_World_Map.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Sancai_T... With Piri Reis map from 100 years before: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91XW2CEmU4L._AC_SL1500_.jpg https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91XW2CEmU4L... (which is a part of an atlas, picturing many areas of the world with literally amazing detail and precision) Granted, Piri Reis did an amazing job, even raising a few conspiracy theories on how he did it, but here is the fairly average European map of the world from 1609: https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3200.ct001217r/ https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3200.ct001217r/

BelenusMordred 6y ago

> it's effectively a monoculture that restricts the data available to the decision makers Would you call Singapore a "weak society" with little ability to innovate? It's essentially what GP was describing.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kybernetikos 6y ago
In a person, inability to critically self-examine or tolerate criticism from others is a sign of a weak person not a strong person. It's the same in countries. I'm not sure I agree that the GPs description is a good description of Singapore, but to the extent that it is, I believe Singaporean society is weaker for it.
fakedang 6y ago
Not GP, but imo Yes. Singapore is the best example of a monoculture in a diverse environment. Systematic rejection of one community and elevation of the other in government, education, military, etc. Not to mention how difficult it is to get citizenship if you're not Chinese in some form. Also where are Singapore's innovations? Apart from building a fancy city, they have done nothing. Many Singaporeans comfortable enough and well off that I know often rush to settle down in Australia or USA or the UK, especially in tech. Why is that? Singapore is a really good magnet for entrepreneurs from other places, but nothing much otherwise. A very artificial place with zero arts and culture - heck, they destroyed their primary language (Cantonese) in schools so as to be cozy with China for business.

lanevorockz 6y ago

> This makes a society weaker - it's effectively a monoculture that restricts the data available to the decision makers. Bingo ! A monoculture is really weak because people that act the same and think the same. It's the reason even though Asia has over 2/3s of world population they are not responsible for 2/3s of all innovation in the world.

apples_oranges 6y ago
They make up for it by learning from everyone. They even send their kids all over the world to go to university.
blackrock 6y ago
So, it never crossed your mind that racist write people enslaved Asia for hundreds of years? They destroyed the Asian government, drugged the Asian population, and forced financial restitutions on the Asians to pay for their their own enslavement. But yet, here we are. Hundreds of years later, and the Asian countries are finally shaking off their colonial enslavement from the white man. And here you are, claiming that they add nothing to the world’s innovations. It’s just a thought. And maybe something you should consider first before judging others.
- refurb 6y ago
  China hasn’t been a colony since when? 100 years ago? Then it was Japanese colonialism. So Asian colonialization of other Asians. Then China decided on a political system that stunted their growth for 40 years. Vietnam stunted their growth for 25 years. Yet we blame the white man?
  - blackrock 6y ago
    You seem to think that a society can turn on a dime. And that past historical grievances does not factor into modern day realities.
    - bluGill 6y ago

nicoburns 6y ago

> This makes a society weaker I think there's some truth to this. But rampant individualism also makes society weaker. It reduces a societies ability to collaborate.

kybernetikos 6y ago
I probably agree with this, at least to some extent, but if the question is what is the better form of society, I'm not sure how relevant it is. You can have societies that are very community minded and govern them in a free way and with a democracy. You can try to govern very individualistic societies with an autocracy. There's probably an optimum level of accepted dissent in a society, depending on what it wants to achieve, and I tend to think that social democracies come the closest to achieving it, and certainly much closer than most autocracies.
mcv 6y ago
As with most things, you need to find a balance between the two. All-or-nothing is rarely a good approach, no matter what you're talking about. Everything taken to extremes turns bad.
liotier 6y ago
> rampant individualism also makes society weaker. It reduces a societies ability to collaborate. Let's not mistake diversity for individualism. We can be diverse, yet share overarching ideals - such as living together peacefully and in solidarity.
- nicoburns 6y ago
  > We can be diverse, yet share overarching ideals - such as living together peacefully and in solidarity. We can, but increasingly I see people arguing that we should forgoe those and determine our actions in society based on our own individual interest and market mechanisms.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Increasingly I see people argue we should take up a socialist society. Not hard to see why a raise in either of the above would result in the other side getting even more extreme in reaction.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]