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I have 3 (!) groups that haven't moved because of 1 person out of 5 or so that refuses and has a "I have nothing to hide, I don't mind targeted ads."-attitude (

I have 3 (!) groups that haven't moved because of 1 person out of 5 or so that refuses and has a "I have nothing to hide, I don't mind targeted ads."-attitude (and tbh a majority of people that care just a little bit). The network effect is strong. It's annoying. I ask them to use another (almost exact copy of an) app, they ask me to share my address book (among others) with FaceBook (probably also among others).

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
hliyan 6y ago
I have multiple family members who made the transition from WhatsApp to Signal without any issue. I think the 1 in 5 stragglers are best left behind.
- 74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago
  family is easier b/c of different social dynamics. there's no risk of losing a relationship to a family member over a messenger. you can just play it passively saying you're not using WA anymore but they are welcome to contact you via EMail, SMS or Signal, Telegram. with friends or rather acquaintances it's more difficult. you're easily being framed as a weirdo who tries to gain control over how people are communicating. soon you'll be "accidentally" skipped at invitations.
  - jeffrallen 6y ago
    The great philosopher Groucho Marx considered that problem and came up with an elegant solution. If there was more room in the margins here I would include it.
    - 74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago
      Well, he wouldn't have that problem to begin with as he'd not be interested in being part of a group which would accept him as a member.
      - Normille 6y ago
        Whoosh!
        74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago
        "If you see a dumb comment that completely misses the point of the subject (for example someone not getting/taking a joke), then you type "whoosh" which means it went way over their head!" https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Whoosh https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Whoosh for real? :D
jalk 6y ago
That doesn't sound like the network effect, but rather granting a single person veto right over the privacy preference of the others. Just create the Signal group between the 4 of you and the network effect will ensure that democracy prevails
- teekert 6y ago
  Well I could do so, but as said the majority won't really see the benefits of pushing so hard. They're willing to switch but not willing to advocate.
  - MrDresden 6y ago
    Long before this recent flurry around Whatsapp (and Facebook in general) I duplicated one of my primary Whatsapp groups on Signal after getting most there to at least created an account. Slowly, by only replying in that group and sending my messages there, I was able to move more of them over and finally the other group died which lead to the last individuals to come over to Signal. It takes time, but can be done.
    - m000 6y ago
      Whether it's doable depends on the time you can wait, and ultimately your objective. Is it enough to stop using WhatsApp within one year? Or should we be striving to migrate and delete our accounts before the policy change takes effect, to also prevent our historical WhatsApp data to be linked to our FB account? I don't have a clear answer myself. Anyone more informed, please elaborate.
  - victords 6y ago
    So, in other words is not one person who is pushing to remain on Whatsapp, but instead only one person pushing to leave.
    - black_puppydog 6y ago
      I read that as "only one person who is pushing to remain on Whatsapp, and only one person pushing to leave."
yarcob 6y ago
I think this mostly affects small groups. If the group is just 5 people, then one individual can prevent it. For bigger groups (eg. the parents groups of my kids school) nobody cares if one or two people don't want to move. Especially since there most likely were a few people who already opposed WhatsApp in the first place. So before there were a few people who weren't part of the group because of WhatsApp, and now there might be a few different people who aren't part of the group because of Signal. You just need to convince a majority that your choice is better, and the terms of service change along with the constant bad press of Facebook was enough to tip the scales for many many groups.
- teekert 6y ago
  For the big groups (30+) I didn't even try. I heard nobody talk about. I feel that these groups will treat a message about this as pure spam. These are not in any way tech interested people btw, just parents from the kid's school.
  - yarcob 6y ago
    It probably makes sense to find one or two allies in the group (by talking offline) before proposing the change. I think that's how they did it for my older kids WhatsApp group. (I'm not sure because I was one of the obnoxious parents who refused to install WhatsApp in the first place. I was a bit surprised when the group suddenly decided to move to Signal)
  - brnt 6y ago
    Any group treating my sincere concern and opinion as spam is no group I feel like I need to stay part of.
Angostura 6y ago
One way I have got doubters to move a bit is to simply say "You don't have to use it, just install it on your phone and enable it - that way you aren't forcing people to use Facebook who don't want to". I got quite a few people to put it on their phone using that line.
sschueller 6y ago
If I hear "I have nothing to hide, I don't mind targeted ads." I ask them to unlock their phone hand it to me.
- dunefox 6y ago
  Not the same thing: you're a person they know, so it's privacy. Facebook, Google, 3 letter agencies do that invisibly.
  - type0 6y ago
    The better way is to put that info on some private forums where some strangers will discuss it, since it's private by the same definition that's privacy.
    - javagram 6y ago
      Sounds like /r/relationship_advice on reddit or any of the many forums where people do post anonymized questions or stories. Although “tracking” for ads is far less invasive than even that, the only particularly annoying thing is when it bugs out and shows you ads for stuff you just purchased and no longer need, it would be nice if they could track a little better and know once you’ve bought something.
- eznzt 6y ago
  Which is not the same thing at all, so it proves nothing.
  - sam_goody 6y ago
    > so it proves nothing. Which, unfortunately, does not matter. You don't win arguments with proof, you win with persuasion. Proofs are but one tool that can be used to persuade the other party, but if the proofs are not clear and quick, usually the other side will feel they are right - "they have won the argument" On the other hand, a quote like this may well be persuasive to many, and they will feel you are right - "you have won". This is not "the ends justify the means" - this is understanding how people argue. There are those that argue on a purely intellectual level; Richard Feynman describes such a conversation with Einstein Oppenheimer and Bohr. But that was noteworthy enough for him to recall it twenty years later!
lukeitup 6y ago
I must admit, I've been slow on the ball here as well. I just decided to move out, but I do struggle with having to persuade friends etc. Same attitude as you're referring to.
pmlnr 6y ago
Leave that person behind.
sneak 6y ago
Just stop using it yourself, and don't concern yourself with who does or doesn't use WhatsApp. Remaining on the service makes it more attractive and useful to the other users.
EastSmith 6y ago
"I understand you have nothing to hide, I have nothing to hide too, but I still do not like giving my data to Facebook. Since in order to communicate we need to be on the same platform, and we both have nothing to hide, but I do not like Facebook, can we please use an app I am comfortable with?"
bipson 6y ago
Look at it this way: I never used WhatsApp. Friends and even businesses I dealt with always asked me if I had it, and why I didn't, and I was apologetic, but firm. Of course I was left out of oh-so-many groups and discussions in the past years, but I was never going to install or use that, I don't trust Facebook regarding privacy the tiniest bit and I think they always lied regarding which data they use and how. Now I suddenly have so many people appearing on Signal, my wife was asked by their friends: "Hey, you weren't on WhatsApp, but I am now on Signal, so would you consider talking there?". I admit, I did not push anyone anywhere, not even my wife. I'm past being an "influencer" and having to deal with "... but you told me to use this?!" - particularly my wife. But just referring to the "network effect" and continue doing something you are uncomfortable with is being complicit IMO. You can control what you do, and do the right thing.
fsflover 6y ago
> "I have nothing to hide, I don't mind targeted ads." This is completely missing the point of why one should fight surveillance. Surveillance harms journalism and activism, making the government too powerful and not accountable. If only activists and journalists will try to have the privacy, it will be much easier to target them. Everyone should have privacy to protect them. It’s sort of like freedom of speech is necessary not just for journalists, but for everyone, even if you have nothing to say. Copied comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25824334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25824334
- teekert 6y ago
  Preaching to the choir, shall I give you my friends' numbers so you can preach to them ;)
TLightful 6y ago
Again, this is broken technology. Data should be free to use whichever platform. The platforms should compete on features. Imagine not being able to call your mate or family because they are on another telecom provider? Someone fix this bullsh!t.
nojokes 6y ago
Leave them behind.
darau1 6y ago
I've decided to finally roll my own matrix server, and configure bridges for the apps that fit into this "I have to use it because person x is too stubborn" category. It'll be a learning experience, and will skip all the "what do you have to hide, though?" conversations.
znpy 6y ago
> moved because of 1 person out of 5 or so that refuses move anyway, that people will eventually move because of the network effect

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

hliyan 6y ago

I have multiple family members who made the transition from WhatsApp to Signal without any issue. I think the 1 in 5 stragglers are best left behind.

74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago
family is easier b/c of different social dynamics. there's no risk of losing a relationship to a family member over a messenger. you can just play it passively saying you're not using WA anymore but they are welcome to contact you via EMail, SMS or Signal, Telegram. with friends or rather acquaintances it's more difficult. you're easily being framed as a weirdo who tries to gain control over how people are communicating. soon you'll be "accidentally" skipped at invitations.
- jeffrallen 6y ago
  The great philosopher Groucho Marx considered that problem and came up with an elegant solution. If there was more room in the margins here I would include it.
  - 74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago
    Well, he wouldn't have that problem to begin with as he'd not be interested in being part of a group which would accept him as a member.
    - Normille 6y ago
      Whoosh!
      - 74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago
        "If you see a dumb comment that completely misses the point of the subject (for example someone not getting/taking a joke), then you type "whoosh" which means it went way over their head!" https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Whoosh https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Whoosh for real? :D

jalk 6y ago

That doesn't sound like the network effect, but rather granting a single person veto right over the privacy preference of the others. Just create the Signal group between the 4 of you and the network effect will ensure that democracy prevails

teekert 6y ago
Well I could do so, but as said the majority won't really see the benefits of pushing so hard. They're willing to switch but not willing to advocate.
- MrDresden 6y ago
  Long before this recent flurry around Whatsapp (and Facebook in general) I duplicated one of my primary Whatsapp groups on Signal after getting most there to at least created an account. Slowly, by only replying in that group and sending my messages there, I was able to move more of them over and finally the other group died which lead to the last individuals to come over to Signal. It takes time, but can be done.
  - m000 6y ago
    Whether it's doable depends on the time you can wait, and ultimately your objective. Is it enough to stop using WhatsApp within one year? Or should we be striving to migrate and delete our accounts before the policy change takes effect, to also prevent our historical WhatsApp data to be linked to our FB account? I don't have a clear answer myself. Anyone more informed, please elaborate.
- victords 6y ago
  So, in other words is not one person who is pushing to remain on Whatsapp, but instead only one person pushing to leave.
  - black_puppydog 6y ago
    I read that as "only one person who is pushing to remain on Whatsapp, and only one person pushing to leave."

yarcob 6y ago

I think this mostly affects small groups. If the group is just 5 people, then one individual can prevent it. For bigger groups (eg. the parents groups of my kids school) nobody cares if one or two people don't want to move. Especially since there most likely were a few people who already opposed WhatsApp in the first place. So before there were a few people who weren't part of the group because of WhatsApp, and now there might be a few different people who aren't part of the group because of Signal. You just need to convince a majority that your choice is better, and the terms of service change along with the constant bad press of Facebook was enough to tip the scales for many many groups.

teekert 6y ago
For the big groups (30+) I didn't even try. I heard nobody talk about. I feel that these groups will treat a message about this as pure spam. These are not in any way tech interested people btw, just parents from the kid's school.
- yarcob 6y ago
  It probably makes sense to find one or two allies in the group (by talking offline) before proposing the change. I think that's how they did it for my older kids WhatsApp group. (I'm not sure because I was one of the obnoxious parents who refused to install WhatsApp in the first place. I was a bit surprised when the group suddenly decided to move to Signal)
- brnt 6y ago
  Any group treating my sincere concern and opinion as spam is no group I feel like I need to stay part of.

Angostura 6y ago

One way I have got doubters to move a bit is to simply say "You don't have to use it, just install it on your phone and enable it - that way you aren't forcing people to use Facebook who don't want to". I got quite a few people to put it on their phone using that line.

sschueller 6y ago

If I hear "I have nothing to hide, I don't mind targeted ads." I ask them to unlock their phone hand it to me.

dunefox 6y ago
Not the same thing: you're a person they know, so it's privacy. Facebook, Google, 3 letter agencies do that invisibly.
- type0 6y ago
  The better way is to put that info on some private forums where some strangers will discuss it, since it's private by the same definition that's privacy.
  - javagram 6y ago
    Sounds like /r/relationship_advice on reddit or any of the many forums where people do post anonymized questions or stories. Although “tracking” for ads is far less invasive than even that, the only particularly annoying thing is when it bugs out and shows you ads for stuff you just purchased and no longer need, it would be nice if they could track a little better and know once you’ve bought something.
eznzt 6y ago
Which is not the same thing at all, so it proves nothing.
- sam_goody 6y ago
  > so it proves nothing. Which, unfortunately, does not matter. You don't win arguments with proof, you win with persuasion. Proofs are but one tool that can be used to persuade the other party, but if the proofs are not clear and quick, usually the other side will feel they are right - "they have won the argument" On the other hand, a quote like this may well be persuasive to many, and they will feel you are right - "you have won". This is not "the ends justify the means" - this is understanding how people argue. There are those that argue on a purely intellectual level; Richard Feynman describes such a conversation with Einstein Oppenheimer and Bohr. But that was noteworthy enough for him to recall it twenty years later!

lukeitup 6y ago

I must admit, I've been slow on the ball here as well. I just decided to move out, but I do struggle with having to persuade friends etc. Same attitude as you're referring to.

pmlnr 6y ago

Leave that person behind.

sneak 6y ago

Just stop using it yourself, and don't concern yourself with who does or doesn't use WhatsApp. Remaining on the service makes it more attractive and useful to the other users.

EastSmith 6y ago

"I understand you have nothing to hide, I have nothing to hide too, but I still do not like giving my data to Facebook. Since in order to communicate we need to be on the same platform, and we both have nothing to hide, but I do not like Facebook, can we please use an app I am comfortable with?"

bipson 6y ago

Look at it this way: I never used WhatsApp. Friends and even businesses I dealt with always asked me if I had it, and why I didn't, and I was apologetic, but firm. Of course I was left out of oh-so-many groups and discussions in the past years, but I was never going to install or use that, I don't trust Facebook regarding privacy the tiniest bit and I think they always lied regarding which data they use and how. Now I suddenly have so many people appearing on Signal, my wife was asked by their friends: "Hey, you weren't on WhatsApp, but I am now on Signal, so would you consider talking there?". I admit, I did not push anyone anywhere, not even my wife. I'm past being an "influencer" and having to deal with "... but you told me to use this?!" - particularly my wife. But just referring to the "network effect" and continue doing something you are uncomfortable with is being complicit IMO. You can control what you do, and do the right thing.

fsflover 6y ago

> "I have nothing to hide, I don't mind targeted ads." This is completely missing the point of why one should fight surveillance. Surveillance harms journalism and activism, making the government too powerful and not accountable. If only activists and journalists will try to have the privacy, it will be much easier to target them. Everyone should have privacy to protect them. It’s sort of like freedom of speech is necessary not just for journalists, but for everyone, even if you have nothing to say. Copied comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25824334 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25824334

teekert 6y ago
Preaching to the choir, shall I give you my friends' numbers so you can preach to them ;)

TLightful 6y ago

Again, this is broken technology. Data should be free to use whichever platform. The platforms should compete on features. Imagine not being able to call your mate or family because they are on another telecom provider? Someone fix this bullsh!t.

nojokes 6y ago

Leave them behind.

darau1 6y ago

I've decided to finally roll my own matrix server, and configure bridges for the apps that fit into this "I have to use it because person x is too stubborn" category. It'll be a learning experience, and will skip all the "what do you have to hide, though?" conversations.

znpy 6y ago

> moved because of 1 person out of 5 or so that refuses move anyway, that people will eventually move because of the network effect