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I think the major threat to WhatsApp is not their ToS debacle but by national governments of countries like India or Australia. I imagine if Indian govt asks th

I think the major threat to WhatsApp is not their ToS debacle but by national governments of countries like India or Australia. I imagine if Indian govt asks them to not enforce this ToS and WhatsApp does not oblige then comes a scenario where it can be blocked and all the govt needs to do is ask its citizens to start using Signal because except for the network effects, there is nothing in WhatsApp that can not be match feature wise in Signal.

wyattpeak 6y ago
I'm not sure I agree, but I certainly think it's possible that that's the bigger threat. I don't think it changes the calculus, though. WhatsApp will be concerned with all serious threats to their market share, and I certainly would disagree with the position that diminished network effects isn't up there.
IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
Correct. The future of the internet is multiple internets. For better or worse, It is not an open one. The US govt fired the first shot with tiktok. Whatsapp / fb seems to be aloof thinking they are inmune from the fractured web
- screamingninja 6y ago
  > The US govt fired the first shot with tiktok Google, Facebook and Twitter have been blocked in China for at least a decade now. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    but that's not cool to talk about and we should just ignore that and concentrate on how turrible the USA is all the time.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
    I agree. However my point was not to blame the US or take a position on virtue of the blocking of tiktok. Instead, want to point out a distinction: the US was the original proponent of the open web that most of the west would then follow. China never hid its intentions to control information to its wishes. China can do whatever it wants , but ultimately it is the US that sets the tone for the web. Arguably China did fire the first shot, and deserve to be condemned by it, but until recently most western countries would stand by the open web principle. I think the US (rightly) has said, we won't tolerate abuse any longer. Ergo, this has given cover to other countries to question the wisdom of the open web. Its no longer the communist / authoritarian govts that can tap into this. In other words, the web fragments when free countries decide its acceptable to block back the communists / dictators. I refrain from saying whether it is a wise move, I only posit that it looks inevitable at this point. I can't edit my original post, but I think this would be more fitting: "USA fires back with the first shot among free western democracies".
stjohnswarts 6y ago
I don't think the Indian government wants everyone to use signal where all end-to-end convos are encrypted and Signal will refuse to open a backdoor for the Indian government. They would basically lose everyone at that point.
richardw 6y ago
Pay by text message. Integration with businesses. It’ll take a while before Signal is going to be sharing your details with businesses, since they’ve worked hard not to have your details. FB wants more of them. They don’t have my CC or account data yet...but wait. I’m moving people to Signal too, but FB has a very good hand here.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  Facebook has had 6 years already to integrate payments or businesses into Whatsapp, and they haven't. They haven't even added the ability to message someone without first entering them in your contacts. They're not going to make it into a WeChat equivalent anytime soon.
  - richardw 6y ago
    In a group, hold the message, click more, click reply privately. Not in contacts. https://www.whatsapp.com/business/api https://www.whatsapp.com/business/api https://www.whatsapp.com/payments https://www.whatsapp.com/payments
    - benhurmarcel 6y ago
      And if somebody gives you their phone number by another channel? For example there's a number on a classified ad, you want to ask if it's still available. Or a restaurant takes bookings via Whatsapp. I don't want to add them to my contacts, I just want to book. Payments are not available in most countries, including countries where private communication are all on the platform. And their businesses offer is extremely basic and doesn't have any penetration, even in places where 100% of people have the app. Why can't you search a business by name to contact them; why don't businesses put up a link on their website/Google Maps to start communicating with them? Why can't I scan a QR code on their ad and message them? Where I live Whatsapp runs all private communication, and yet in 6 years Facebook hasn't even tried doing more.
      - richardw 6y ago

wyattpeak 6y ago

I'm not sure I agree, but I certainly think it's possible that that's the bigger threat. I don't think it changes the calculus, though. WhatsApp will be concerned with all serious threats to their market share, and I certainly would disagree with the position that diminished network effects isn't up there.

IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago

Correct. The future of the internet is multiple internets. For better or worse, It is not an open one. The US govt fired the first shot with tiktok. Whatsapp / fb seems to be aloof thinking they are inmune from the fractured web

screamingninja 6y ago
> The US govt fired the first shot with tiktok Google, Facebook and Twitter have been blocked in China for at least a decade now. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  but that's not cool to talk about and we should just ignore that and concentrate on how turrible the USA is all the time.
- IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
  I agree. However my point was not to blame the US or take a position on virtue of the blocking of tiktok. Instead, want to point out a distinction: the US was the original proponent of the open web that most of the west would then follow. China never hid its intentions to control information to its wishes. China can do whatever it wants , but ultimately it is the US that sets the tone for the web. Arguably China did fire the first shot, and deserve to be condemned by it, but until recently most western countries would stand by the open web principle. I think the US (rightly) has said, we won't tolerate abuse any longer. Ergo, this has given cover to other countries to question the wisdom of the open web. Its no longer the communist / authoritarian govts that can tap into this. In other words, the web fragments when free countries decide its acceptable to block back the communists / dictators. I refrain from saying whether it is a wise move, I only posit that it looks inevitable at this point. I can't edit my original post, but I think this would be more fitting: "USA fires back with the first shot among free western democracies".

stjohnswarts 6y ago

I don't think the Indian government wants everyone to use signal where all end-to-end convos are encrypted and Signal will refuse to open a backdoor for the Indian government. They would basically lose everyone at that point.

richardw 6y ago

Pay by text message. Integration with businesses. It’ll take a while before Signal is going to be sharing your details with businesses, since they’ve worked hard not to have your details. FB wants more of them. They don’t have my CC or account data yet...but wait. I’m moving people to Signal too, but FB has a very good hand here.

benhurmarcel 6y ago
Facebook has had 6 years already to integrate payments or businesses into Whatsapp, and they haven't. They haven't even added the ability to message someone without first entering them in your contacts. They're not going to make it into a WeChat equivalent anytime soon.
- richardw 6y ago
  In a group, hold the message, click more, click reply privately. Not in contacts. https://www.whatsapp.com/business/api https://www.whatsapp.com/business/api https://www.whatsapp.com/payments https://www.whatsapp.com/payments
  - benhurmarcel 6y ago
    And if somebody gives you their phone number by another channel? For example there's a number on a classified ad, you want to ask if it's still available. Or a restaurant takes bookings via Whatsapp. I don't want to add them to my contacts, I just want to book. Payments are not available in most countries, including countries where private communication are all on the platform. And their businesses offer is extremely basic and doesn't have any penetration, even in places where 100% of people have the app. Why can't you search a business by name to contact them; why don't businesses put up a link on their website/Google Maps to start communicating with them? Why can't I scan a QR code on their ad and message them? Where I live Whatsapp runs all private communication, and yet in 6 years Facebook hasn't even tried doing more.
    - richardw 6y ago