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I think Facebook would be unwise not to care, and whatever else they may be I don't think they're unwise. All of their products trade on enormous network effec

I think Facebook would be unwise not to care, and whatever else they may be I don't think they're unwise. All of their products trade on enormous network effects, so I think they'd be very aware of maintaining that barrier to entry for new competitors. They've stumbled badly on that front here, and once competitors gain a foothold it'll be hard to keep them out.

ketamine__ 6y ago
Network effect is the moat that is insurmountable according to those that believe big tech should be regulated like a utility. If a new TOS policy with a bunch of legalese can damage the moat I would say the moat is pretty vulnerable. It seems less clear that the market can deliver a solution for people that post untrue things on the internet.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > Network effect is the moat that is insurmountable according to those that believe big tech should be regulated like a utility. The network effect in messaging apps is significantly lower than it is in other cases because people are not going to carry two brands of cell phone in their pocket but they very well might have five different messaging apps on their phone. > It seems less clear that the market can deliver a solution for people that post untrue things on the internet. It seems less clear that anything could do that ever.
  - chopin 6y ago
    It's even less clear if you would like that solution even if it exists...
gordon_freeman 6y ago
I think the major threat to WhatsApp is not their ToS debacle but by national governments of countries like India or Australia. I imagine if Indian govt asks them to not enforce this ToS and WhatsApp does not oblige then comes a scenario where it can be blocked and all the govt needs to do is ask its citizens to start using Signal because except for the network effects, there is nothing in WhatsApp that can not be match feature wise in Signal.
- wyattpeak 6y ago
  I'm not sure I agree, but I certainly think it's possible that that's the bigger threat. I don't think it changes the calculus, though. WhatsApp will be concerned with all serious threats to their market share, and I certainly would disagree with the position that diminished network effects isn't up there.
- IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
  Correct. The future of the internet is multiple internets. For better or worse, It is not an open one. The US govt fired the first shot with tiktok. Whatsapp / fb seems to be aloof thinking they are inmune from the fractured web
  - screamingninja 6y ago
    > The US govt fired the first shot with tiktok Google, Facebook and Twitter have been blocked in China for at least a decade now. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...
    - stjohnswarts 6y ago
      but that's not cool to talk about and we should just ignore that and concentrate on how turrible the USA is all the time.
    - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
      I agree. However my point was not to blame the US or take a position on virtue of the blocking of tiktok. Instead, want to point out a distinction: the US was the original proponent of the open web that most of the west would then follow. China never hid its intentions to control information to its wishes. China can do whatever it wants , but ultimately it is the US that sets the tone for the web. Arguably China did fire the first shot, and deserve to be condemned by it, but until recently most western countries would stand by the open web principle. I think the US (rightly) has said, we won't tolerate abuse any longer. Ergo, this has given cover to other countries to question the wisdom of the open web. Its no longer the communist / authoritarian govts that can tap into this. In other words, the web fragments when free countries decide its acceptable to block back the communists / dictators. I refrain from saying whether it is a wise move, I only posit that it looks inevitable at this point. I can't edit my original post, but I think this would be more fitting: "USA fires back with the first shot among free western democracies".

ketamine__ 6y ago

Network effect is the moat that is insurmountable according to those that believe big tech should be regulated like a utility. If a new TOS policy with a bunch of legalese can damage the moat I would say the moat is pretty vulnerable. It seems less clear that the market can deliver a solution for people that post untrue things on the internet.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> Network effect is the moat that is insurmountable according to those that believe big tech should be regulated like a utility. The network effect in messaging apps is significantly lower than it is in other cases because people are not going to carry two brands of cell phone in their pocket but they very well might have five different messaging apps on their phone. > It seems less clear that the market can deliver a solution for people that post untrue things on the internet. It seems less clear that anything could do that ever.
- chopin 6y ago
  It's even less clear if you would like that solution even if it exists...

gordon_freeman 6y ago

I think the major threat to WhatsApp is not their ToS debacle but by national governments of countries like India or Australia. I imagine if Indian govt asks them to not enforce this ToS and WhatsApp does not oblige then comes a scenario where it can be blocked and all the govt needs to do is ask its citizens to start using Signal because except for the network effects, there is nothing in WhatsApp that can not be match feature wise in Signal.

wyattpeak 6y ago
I'm not sure I agree, but I certainly think it's possible that that's the bigger threat. I don't think it changes the calculus, though. WhatsApp will be concerned with all serious threats to their market share, and I certainly would disagree with the position that diminished network effects isn't up there.
IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
Correct. The future of the internet is multiple internets. For better or worse, It is not an open one. The US govt fired the first shot with tiktok. Whatsapp / fb seems to be aloof thinking they are inmune from the fractured web
- screamingninja 6y ago
  > The US govt fired the first shot with tiktok Google, Facebook and Twitter have been blocked in China for at least a decade now. Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_ma...
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    but that's not cool to talk about and we should just ignore that and concentrate on how turrible the USA is all the time.
  - IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
    I agree. However my point was not to blame the US or take a position on virtue of the blocking of tiktok. Instead, want to point out a distinction: the US was the original proponent of the open web that most of the west would then follow. China never hid its intentions to control information to its wishes. China can do whatever it wants , but ultimately it is the US that sets the tone for the web. Arguably China did fire the first shot, and deserve to be condemned by it, but until recently most western countries would stand by the open web principle. I think the US (rightly) has said, we won't tolerate abuse any longer. Ergo, this has given cover to other countries to question the wisdom of the open web. Its no longer the communist / authoritarian govts that can tap into this. In other words, the web fragments when free countries decide its acceptable to block back the communists / dictators. I refrain from saying whether it is a wise move, I only posit that it looks inevitable at this point. I can't edit my original post, but I think this would be more fitting: "USA fires back with the first shot among free western democracies".