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"If your mobile device is turned on, our network is collecting data about the device location. We may use, provide access to, or disclose this network location

"If your mobile device is turned on, our network is collecting data about the device location. We may use, provide access to, or disclose this network location data without your approval to provide and support our Services, including to route wireless communications, operate and improve our network and business, detect and prevent fraud, provide information to emergency responders about where to find you when you call public safety agencies, including through 911 or similar emergency services numbers, or as required by law." [1] The wording here seems to suggest they can only use it for diagnosing their T-Mobile network, to emergency services or as required by law. Where is the loophole? [1] https://www.t-mobile.com/privacy-center/our-practices/privacy-policy https://www.t-mobile.com/privacy-center/our-practices/privac...

salawat 6y ago
>operate and improve our network and business >and business Loophole is right there. The improvement of their business can be interpreted as anything. Winning a government project, PR win, getting rid of a meddlesome or unsavory customer, supporting an unpopular government action to avoid unpleasant consequences.... All of those fall under improving their business. Generally speaking, any phrase not explicitly defined and constrained in any sort of legal document is where you go to start looking for wiggle room.
A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
I can only assume that the loophole lies in "without your approval". I have not read disclosures from them in forever so I can't readily confirm it, but that would suggest your approval is basically agreeing to use their service.
paxys 6y ago
> The DIA explains in the memo that it simply does not think the Carpenter ruling applies to it. "DIA does not construe the Carpenter decision to require a judicial warrant endorsing purchase or use of commercially-available data for intelligence purposes," the agency wrote. "DIA's acquisition, use, and storage of commercial geolocation data is governed" not by these civilian law enforcement rules but by the DoD's own "Attorney General-approved data handling requirements." If the DoD thinks it has the right to this data then whatever agreement you have with T-Mobile doesn't really matter. Ultimately that is what needs to be challenged in court.
tppiotrowski 6y ago
This is a good example of how things can get illegal. I start Company A and tell AT&T I will obtain consent from users for any request of location data from AT&T. AT&T approves our partnership and grants me access to customer data. My Company A then starts taking data for other purposes (selling to bounty hunters) without informing AT&T. My other use is then discovered and I am shut down. https://www.wyden.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/at&t%20letter%20to%20RW%206.15.pdf https://www.wyden.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/at&t%20letter%20t...
wmf 6y ago
OK, so maybe T-Mobile isn't selling your location. What about AT&T and Verizon? What about every app on your phone?
username90 6y ago
> We may use, provide access to, or disclose this network location data without your approval to provide and support our Services That is the important part, everything else are just suggestions. If they view selling user data as one of their services then selling your data to someone else is a part of things the contract covers.
- eue6e6ey 6y ago
  Minor nitpick, selling the data probably isn't a service. It would be an action taken to help support the actual service via better monetization.
  - sitkack 6y ago
    "our Services" isn't to the consumer but to the entity purchasing the location information.
    - eue6e6ey 6y ago
      That makes sense, I'd assumed it was specific to the service the consumer was using that prompted them to agree.
      - sitkack 6y ago
        It is a lie a sense, it meant to deceive and give plausible deniability for the telco to do literally anything they want. In that regard, the whole thing can be thrown out as <fancy word for> trickery.
  - some_random 6y ago
    Data streams can absolutely be provided as a service.
djrogers 6y ago
> including The word that connects the first part to the list of reasons is ‘including’. Not ‘limited to’, not ‘strictly’, just ‘including.
anigbrowl 6y ago
If their services include providing consumer intelligence about cellular customers to other businesses, that is presumably included even though you are not the beneficiary of such commercial efforts.
oliv__ 6y ago
"If your mobile device is turned on" Does that mean they are collecting location even if my device is on airplane mode with wifi and bluetooth off?

salawat 6y ago

>operate and improve our network and business >and business Loophole is right there. The improvement of their business can be interpreted as anything. Winning a government project, PR win, getting rid of a meddlesome or unsavory customer, supporting an unpopular government action to avoid unpleasant consequences.... All of those fall under improving their business. Generally speaking, any phrase not explicitly defined and constrained in any sort of legal document is where you go to start looking for wiggle room.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago

I can only assume that the loophole lies in "without your approval". I have not read disclosures from them in forever so I can't readily confirm it, but that would suggest your approval is basically agreeing to use their service.

paxys 6y ago

> The DIA explains in the memo that it simply does not think the Carpenter ruling applies to it. "DIA does not construe the Carpenter decision to require a judicial warrant endorsing purchase or use of commercially-available data for intelligence purposes," the agency wrote. "DIA's acquisition, use, and storage of commercial geolocation data is governed" not by these civilian law enforcement rules but by the DoD's own "Attorney General-approved data handling requirements." If the DoD thinks it has the right to this data then whatever agreement you have with T-Mobile doesn't really matter. Ultimately that is what needs to be challenged in court.

tppiotrowski 6y ago

This is a good example of how things can get illegal. I start Company A and tell AT&T I will obtain consent from users for any request of location data from AT&T. AT&T approves our partnership and grants me access to customer data. My Company A then starts taking data for other purposes (selling to bounty hunters) without informing AT&T. My other use is then discovered and I am shut down. https://www.wyden.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/at&t%20letter%20to%20RW%206.15.pdf https://www.wyden.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/at&t%20letter%20t...

wmf 6y ago

OK, so maybe T-Mobile isn't selling your location. What about AT&T and Verizon? What about every app on your phone?

username90 6y ago

> We may use, provide access to, or disclose this network location data without your approval to provide and support our Services That is the important part, everything else are just suggestions. If they view selling user data as one of their services then selling your data to someone else is a part of things the contract covers.

eue6e6ey 6y ago
Minor nitpick, selling the data probably isn't a service. It would be an action taken to help support the actual service via better monetization.
- sitkack 6y ago
  "our Services" isn't to the consumer but to the entity purchasing the location information.
  - eue6e6ey 6y ago
    That makes sense, I'd assumed it was specific to the service the consumer was using that prompted them to agree.
    - sitkack 6y ago
      It is a lie a sense, it meant to deceive and give plausible deniability for the telco to do literally anything they want. In that regard, the whole thing can be thrown out as <fancy word for> trickery.
- some_random 6y ago
  Data streams can absolutely be provided as a service.

djrogers 6y ago

> including The word that connects the first part to the list of reasons is ‘including’. Not ‘limited to’, not ‘strictly’, just ‘including.

anigbrowl 6y ago

If their services include providing consumer intelligence about cellular customers to other businesses, that is presumably included even though you are not the beneficiary of such commercial efforts.

oliv__ 6y ago

"If your mobile device is turned on" Does that mean they are collecting location even if my device is on airplane mode with wifi and bluetooth off?