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Landing in Japan, I was surprised to find that people did not look that similar. I mean, this is Asia and all Asians look the same. But Japan had some yellowish

by csomar 6y ago

Landing in Japan, I was surprised to find that people did not look that similar. I mean, this is Asia and all Asians look the same. But Japan had some yellowish, whitish, brownish people that were all, euh, Japanese. In a sense, they were Japanese because they behaved like Japanese. It seems that behavior plays a big role in how people can identify another one as being one of them. Robert Sapolsky has a great series in Youtube about Behavioral Biology. One of the insights he brings is about Arabs: According to him, Arabs adopted very long names so that they can avoid racial conflict. When two persons recites their names and find a family name that's similar, they assume that they are family and this helps them co-operate. Now that's BS (given a long enough last name, you are going to find a similar grand-parent name) but it happens to work. Islam had this too: Your fellow muslim is your "brother". It's time some countries realize that this has been a solved problem: To uproot racism, you need to rally your population behind common denominators and values.

DC-3 6y ago
> To uproot racism, you need to rally your population behind common denominators and values. That's all very nice but how do you apply it to the situation where you have a minority group with little to no interest in integrating into the indigenous culture?
- thaumasiotes 6y ago
  You make them do it anyway. It's interesting to note in this context that unlike most countries, China fully assimilated its Jewish population.
  - peteretep 6y ago
    I think forcibly assimilating minorities and China are a hard sell to mention together in a sentence without also mentioning Uighurs and Tibetans
  - hogFeast 6y ago
    True, I have heard they are assimilating their Muslim population very effectively too. They even have assimilation holiday camps, fun for all the family.
    - thaumasiotes 6y ago
      I'm sort of morbidly fascinated by the equation in the American press of "China's Muslim population" with "China's Uyghur population". They're very different things.
      - katbyte 6y ago
        If that is true could Olympus elaborate on how?
        SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        There’s another large Muslim minority group called the Hui, who aren’t included in the Xinjiang camps and are generally treated well by most accounts I’ve seen.
        alisonatwork 6y ago
        The Hui also got caught up in the "war on terror" (read: anti-Muslim policies) that supposedly only targeted Uighur separatists. Example from Chinese state media: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1092308.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1092308.shtml Now, arguably the anti-halal policies were about trying to ban misleading advertising, because it's a bit silly to claim halal status on everything. Malaysia is another country that also has a bit of problem with this. But then, China has an awful lot of other misleading advertising and false claims (in particular around TCM and efficacy of folk remedies) that the government ignores or promotes. Why only target halal? Misleading advertising aside, it's definitely the case that Arabic script for halal disappeared from legitimately halal restaurants all over China as part of this crackdown. The message seemed to be that it is okay to be Muslim, just keep quiet about it and do not advertise it too much.
  - refactor_master 6y ago
    Sure, just like the Chinese constitution technically ensures personal and religious freedom. For example, I could start my own cult and write all the angry blog posts I wanted. Now, once I gain more than 100 followers, the dynamics start to change slightly.
- refactor_master 6y ago
  Vote for an overall better society with more equality. Don’t vote for populist parties who use minorities as scapegoats. Everything else follows as a natural effect of that. Immigration is hard, but politicians would like to see it all solved in their term period.
  - redisman 6y ago
    That’s a non-answer. National populist parties rise with increased immigration and a feeling of their society changing from what they’re used to. How do you tell people who vote for these parties to not do it? I’m also an immigrant but it’s become very clear to me that telling people what they want is bad and they shouldn’t want it is not working at all
    - refactor_master 6y ago
      The short answer is a fuzzy “more educated and equal society”. You don’t tell people what to do. They will automatically do the society-endorsed right thing(tm). Just like religion and blind faith drops when education increases. You could argue that “marginalized local communities” are driving the votes for populist parties, thus creating the whole problem, and by taking better care of them will actually free up more resources for everyone in the long run, because immigration is no longer this massive expense that everyone thought it was.
- 627467 6y ago
  ...or when "indigenous" culture pretend that integration only works in a single direction-minorities being absorbed into bigger group without impacting any change in "original" culture.
- oxfeed65261 6y ago
  My understanding is that the Yamato are not indigenous to Japan. For example [1]: > Now [1997], in two landmark actions, a court and Japan's national legislature have taken the first steps to recognize that Japan's Ainu (EYE-new) people predated the Yamato race that conquered its land and systematically attempted to stamp out its existence. For Japan, a nation with a near-religious belief in the homogeneity of its people, these decisions mark the first time it has ever formally acknowledged a minority group living in its midst. [1] Apologies for the AMP link, but trying to open the article URL directly redirects me to the Baltimore Sun home page. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1997-10-04-1997277067-story,amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp... See also https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/world/asia/03ainu.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/world/asia/03ainu.html
- esyir 6y ago
  That's simple. Integrate or be removed. Cultures across time have dealt with attempts to supplant them with hostility. Whether you see that as a viable option is up to you.
syockit 6y ago
> Islam had this too: Your fellow muslim is your "brother". But then comes along people who vie for political power. In the process, they start to again divide people along certain differences, one which may be racial, sometimes it is lineage. And so you see the process of unification being reversed.
- hogFeast 6y ago
  It is difficult to think of a worse example than Islam or a religon generally for "uniting people". Any attempt to unite people is inherently exclusionary. That is not problematic in itself but, inevitably, some people equate unity with superiority. It is a fine line. What has improved (this is contentious) is: decline of religion, increased in shared interest, more diverse identities (i.e. people identify in more than one way), and more knowledge about people who are different with the internet/media/etc. Nationalism is, however, still understated as a cause of strife (I am in the UK so that perhaps colours my perspective).
kebman 6y ago
> To uproot racism, you need to rally your population behind common denominators and values. Such as The Constitution?
- psyc 6y ago
  Seems like Americans have less and less in common, especially in ways adjacent to patriotism, all of the time. Much has been written about anti-intellectualism in these circles, where most of us have distinguished ourselves from the rabble by intellectual pursuits. But intellectuals would also rather write thinkpieces about how the majority of American history has been whitewashed (and... male-washed?) And I can't even say they don't make good points! Can most African Americans really be expected to rally around the Constitution or the lofty ideals of the revolution? I'm thinking they probably have a different perspective on that. A different experience of America and its history. That's not even to mention this generation's disillusionment with the 1st amendment, the rejection or reinterpretation of the 2nd, the gradual erosion of the 4th. The association of constitutional 'audits' (YouTube that for a good time) with right wing conspiracy nuts. The conflation of patriotism with jingoism. I don't know how much of a rallying point the constitution can be going forward. And I wonder where that leaves us.
Blikkentrekker 6y ago
> In a sense, they were Japanese because they behaved like Japanese. It seems that behavior plays a big role in how people can identify another one as being one of them. I find this to be the case too in the Netherlands. There is a large immigrant population and they cannot be identified by the color of their skin, but easily by their body language. It is strangely reproducible to spot a Pole from a rather far distance from the way he walks. A friend of mine is “Turkish”, but he came to the Netherlands quite young and thus did not undergo Turkish socialization and walks and speaks as any Dutchman, so many are quite surprised when it's eventually revealed that he speaks Turkish fluently and was born in Turkey, as many Turks, though not visually very distinct from the Dutch, have a certain body language that often identifies them that often disappears within a generation with those that did spend their formative years in the Netherlands. Similarly, I am not white but since I spent my formative years in the Netherlands my body language and accent are completely Dutch, but my parents both have a hint of Surinamese accent and body language that instantly identifies them, though one of them is white. > Robert Sapolsky has a great series in Youtube about Behavioral Biology. One of the insights he brings is about Arabs: According to him, Arabs adopted very long names so that they can avoid racial conflict. When two persons recites their names and find a family name that's similar, they assume that they are family and this helps them co-operate. Now that's BS (given a long enough last name, you are going to find a similar grand-parent name) but it happens to work. Islam had this too: Your fellow muslim is your "brother". > It's time some countries realize that this has been a solved problem: To uproot racism, you need to rally your population behind common denominators and values. Yet what this simply seems to create is conflict with external parties until it reaches the entire world. It seems as though many men have a drive to be part of an ethnic, tribal conflict. I even find that, most ironically, what brings men together is the combined struggle against other men. There is nothing quite like a war with another nation, that makes a nation forget it's petty differences.

by csomar 6y ago

DC-3 6y ago

> To uproot racism, you need to rally your population behind common denominators and values. That's all very nice but how do you apply it to the situation where you have a minority group with little to no interest in integrating into the indigenous culture?

thaumasiotes 6y ago
You make them do it anyway. It's interesting to note in this context that unlike most countries, China fully assimilated its Jewish population.
- peteretep 6y ago
  I think forcibly assimilating minorities and China are a hard sell to mention together in a sentence without also mentioning Uighurs and Tibetans
- hogFeast 6y ago
  True, I have heard they are assimilating their Muslim population very effectively too. They even have assimilation holiday camps, fun for all the family.
  - thaumasiotes 6y ago
    I'm sort of morbidly fascinated by the equation in the American press of "China's Muslim population" with "China's Uyghur population". They're very different things.
    - katbyte 6y ago
      If that is true could Olympus elaborate on how?
      - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
        There’s another large Muslim minority group called the Hui, who aren’t included in the Xinjiang camps and are generally treated well by most accounts I’ve seen.
        alisonatwork 6y ago
        The Hui also got caught up in the "war on terror" (read: anti-Muslim policies) that supposedly only targeted Uighur separatists. Example from Chinese state media: https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1092308.shtml https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1092308.shtml Now, arguably the anti-halal policies were about trying to ban misleading advertising, because it's a bit silly to claim halal status on everything. Malaysia is another country that also has a bit of problem with this. But then, China has an awful lot of other misleading advertising and false claims (in particular around TCM and efficacy of folk remedies) that the government ignores or promotes. Why only target halal? Misleading advertising aside, it's definitely the case that Arabic script for halal disappeared from legitimately halal restaurants all over China as part of this crackdown. The message seemed to be that it is okay to be Muslim, just keep quiet about it and do not advertise it too much.
- refactor_master 6y ago
  Sure, just like the Chinese constitution technically ensures personal and religious freedom. For example, I could start my own cult and write all the angry blog posts I wanted. Now, once I gain more than 100 followers, the dynamics start to change slightly.
refactor_master 6y ago
Vote for an overall better society with more equality. Don’t vote for populist parties who use minorities as scapegoats. Everything else follows as a natural effect of that. Immigration is hard, but politicians would like to see it all solved in their term period.
- redisman 6y ago
  That’s a non-answer. National populist parties rise with increased immigration and a feeling of their society changing from what they’re used to. How do you tell people who vote for these parties to not do it? I’m also an immigrant but it’s become very clear to me that telling people what they want is bad and they shouldn’t want it is not working at all
  - refactor_master 6y ago
    The short answer is a fuzzy “more educated and equal society”. You don’t tell people what to do. They will automatically do the society-endorsed right thing(tm). Just like religion and blind faith drops when education increases. You could argue that “marginalized local communities” are driving the votes for populist parties, thus creating the whole problem, and by taking better care of them will actually free up more resources for everyone in the long run, because immigration is no longer this massive expense that everyone thought it was.
627467 6y ago
...or when "indigenous" culture pretend that integration only works in a single direction-minorities being absorbed into bigger group without impacting any change in "original" culture.
oxfeed65261 6y ago
My understanding is that the Yamato are not indigenous to Japan. For example [1]: > Now [1997], in two landmark actions, a court and Japan's national legislature have taken the first steps to recognize that Japan's Ainu (EYE-new) people predated the Yamato race that conquered its land and systematically attempted to stamp out its existence. For Japan, a nation with a near-religious belief in the homogeneity of its people, these decisions mark the first time it has ever formally acknowledged a minority group living in its midst. [1] Apologies for the AMP link, but trying to open the article URL directly redirects me to the Baltimore Sun home page. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1997-10-04-1997277067-story,amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xp... See also https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/world/asia/03ainu.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/03/world/asia/03ainu.html
esyir 6y ago
That's simple. Integrate or be removed. Cultures across time have dealt with attempts to supplant them with hostility. Whether you see that as a viable option is up to you.

syockit 6y ago

> Islam had this too: Your fellow muslim is your "brother". But then comes along people who vie for political power. In the process, they start to again divide people along certain differences, one which may be racial, sometimes it is lineage. And so you see the process of unification being reversed.

hogFeast 6y ago
It is difficult to think of a worse example than Islam or a religon generally for "uniting people". Any attempt to unite people is inherently exclusionary. That is not problematic in itself but, inevitably, some people equate unity with superiority. It is a fine line. What has improved (this is contentious) is: decline of religion, increased in shared interest, more diverse identities (i.e. people identify in more than one way), and more knowledge about people who are different with the internet/media/etc. Nationalism is, however, still understated as a cause of strife (I am in the UK so that perhaps colours my perspective).

kebman 6y ago

> To uproot racism, you need to rally your population behind common denominators and values. Such as The Constitution?

psyc 6y ago
Seems like Americans have less and less in common, especially in ways adjacent to patriotism, all of the time. Much has been written about anti-intellectualism in these circles, where most of us have distinguished ourselves from the rabble by intellectual pursuits. But intellectuals would also rather write thinkpieces about how the majority of American history has been whitewashed (and... male-washed?) And I can't even say they don't make good points! Can most African Americans really be expected to rally around the Constitution or the lofty ideals of the revolution? I'm thinking they probably have a different perspective on that. A different experience of America and its history. That's not even to mention this generation's disillusionment with the 1st amendment, the rejection or reinterpretation of the 2nd, the gradual erosion of the 4th. The association of constitutional 'audits' (YouTube that for a good time) with right wing conspiracy nuts. The conflation of patriotism with jingoism. I don't know how much of a rallying point the constitution can be going forward. And I wonder where that leaves us.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

> In a sense, they were Japanese because they behaved like Japanese. It seems that behavior plays a big role in how people can identify another one as being one of them. I find this to be the case too in the Netherlands. There is a large immigrant population and they cannot be identified by the color of their skin, but easily by their body language. It is strangely reproducible to spot a Pole from a rather far distance from the way he walks. A friend of mine is “Turkish”, but he came to the Netherlands quite young and thus did not undergo Turkish socialization and walks and speaks as any Dutchman, so many are quite surprised when it's eventually revealed that he speaks Turkish fluently and was born in Turkey, as many Turks, though not visually very distinct from the Dutch, have a certain body language that often identifies them that often disappears within a generation with those that did spend their formative years in the Netherlands. Similarly, I am not white but since I spent my formative years in the Netherlands my body language and accent are completely Dutch, but my parents both have a hint of Surinamese accent and body language that instantly identifies them, though one of them is white. > Robert Sapolsky has a great series in Youtube about Behavioral Biology. One of the insights he brings is about Arabs: According to him, Arabs adopted very long names so that they can avoid racial conflict. When two persons recites their names and find a family name that's similar, they assume that they are family and this helps them co-operate. Now that's BS (given a long enough last name, you are going to find a similar grand-parent name) but it happens to work. Islam had this too: Your fellow muslim is your "brother". > It's time some countries realize that this has been a solved problem: To uproot racism, you need to rally your population behind common denominators and values. Yet what this simply seems to create is conflict with external parties until it reaches the entire world. It seems as though many men have a drive to be part of an ethnic, tribal conflict. I even find that, most ironically, what brings men together is the combined struggle against other men. There is nothing quite like a war with another nation, that makes a nation forget it's petty differences.