12 ms·
Go to Airgas and buy a 40# argon tank meant for welding. Thirty seconds will displace the air in a nearly empty wine bottle threefold. The tank will last years.
by Syzygies 6y ago
Go to Airgas and buy a 40# argon tank meant for welding. Thirty seconds will displace the air in a nearly empty wine bottle threefold. The tank will last years.
One stops worrying about bottle boundaries. One buys magnums. ("A difficult size, too much for one but not enough for two.") There is a faint mellowing effect by the next day, but nothing like the effect of oxygen.
We sometimes deliberately skip argon. In Italy you know you're tight when friends serve yesterday's wine. Those wines need the abuse. Most wines don't handle the abuse of an open day well.
Scale matters. There are $300 units made of cheap plastic aimed at wine "connoisseurs". The cartridge is the same size I'd carry mountain biking, to fill one inner tube on an emergency basis. That's supposed to last 50 bottles? How stupid does the manufacturer think I am?
Yes, argon is heavier than air, but there's this thing called diffusion. There's argon in the air around us; if argon cleanly separated from air and formed a bottom layer, we'd all suffocate when we lay on the floor. Obviously, we don't. Put it together.
I'm reminded of Thomas Keller's Bouchon Bakery cookbook taking heat for proposing 350 ml of water for bread steam, poured onto 30 lbs of thermal mass such as an aluminum disk in a cake pan. That also generates enough steam to displace the volume of an oven threefold. A commercial bread oven depends on serious steam for the first few minutes; this is a home approximation. People liked the idea of spritzing 10 ml of water from a plant spritzer, and were offended Keller did the science. They were just genuflecting.
One can wait months to obtain medical grade argon. It's the same process, only tested to confirm the fact that the process doesn't introduce toxins.
My wife is a practical engineer; she indulges every exploration like this. Some take. This one took. A standard after-dinner question is "Did you argon the wine?"
- parhamn 6y agoOff topic, but, do you blog? This comment led me to quickly read some of your priors (something I rarely do) and you have some good stories/experiences. Kinda blog I’d like reading
- Syzygies 6y agoThank you? The place I pontificate the most, where I understand my audience, is the Komodo Kamado forum (the best ceramic BBQ made, by Art Linkletter's grandson who I've come to know): https://komodokamadoforum.com/profile/249-syzygies/ https://komodokamadoforum.com/profile/249-syzygies/ I'm known there for a "smoke pot" system for controlling smoke, and doing the math on creating steam for bread. As a mathematician, I'm best known for my "seven shuffles" card shuffling work with Persi Diaconis, the computer algebra system "Macaulay" (too much C code), and being the math consultant for "A Beautiful Mind". I really shouldn't blog. I'm still trying to come up with an understandable proof of the Poincare Conjecture.
- arthurcolle 6y agoA Beautiful Mind was a great movie, congrats for participating in such a nice contribution to popular culture. Do you write on window glass? ;)
- Syzygies 6y agoYes. I was Russell Crowe's hand double. If it wasn't his head showing it was me. He got the idea of acrylic nails to make his (our) hands longer like Nash. I'd be out in the village drinking with friends, and they'd point out my hands, describing the story. No one bought it. Then I'd say I was a Barbra Streisand impersonator. That I could sell, there was probably one in every bar down the street. I got my nails done at the same NJ salon that Edie Falco used for the Sopranos. The woman who had promised to do the work was on a Caribbean cruise, so she phoned in. She asked me if I was doing anything else on the film besides being Russell's hand double? I told her I was also his love double. "Will you be needing an extension for that too?"
- arthurcolle 6y agoWhat a delightful anecdote! Such a rich set of experiences. Is your last name also the name of a major German pharma corp? > I told her I was also his love double. In stitches right now. Did you get to hang out with Russell Crowe, Paul Bettany and Jennifer Connelly? Must be fun being a celeb :D EDIT: you are in the pen ceremony as well! Wow I need to rewatch this urgently, it's definitely one of my favorite movies and I'll be on the lookout for the cameo :) EDIT: I was born in 1992, watched it in theaters when I was 9. Time flies.
- leephillips 6y agoNot often an HN comment makes me laugh out loud.
- arthurcolle 6y agoI wonder/hope (if) it is real
- athriren 6y agothank you for commenting this, it lead to an amazing thread.
- whymauri 6y agoI've also had good luck with nitrous canisters and a cream-charge dispenser. You can order the canisters via Amazon, which is more convenient for me. I do a lot of baking and cocktail infusions, so I kill two (or more?) birds with one stone there.
- Scoundreller 6y agoWouldn’t the n2o oxidize things like o2 does?
- whymauri 6y agoMy (admittedly qualitative) experience, is that N2O oxidizes less than O2, although it's probably not as good as GP's suggestion to use Argon. It's mostly useful for finishing a bottle the day after without compromising on taste. I'm not sure how it might keep if you're hoping to save the wine for longer. Argon might last for longer than one day, which is a plus! But I tend to finish the bottle within a day or two, so N2O works fine for me.
- buran77 6y agoI've had good experiences with pumping out the air from the bottle with a wine saver vacuum pump and special bottle cap. Very effective solution, next to finishing the bottle.
- odonnellryan 6y agoThe vacuum devices take more effort, but work well for up to a week or so.
- dhsysusbsjsi 6y agoI think the author is incorrect about vacuvin being rubbish, and loses all credibility when describing replacing the cork being a good method, but vacuum sealers being ineffective. The beginning of the article asserts that oxidation is one of the primary causes of wine going bad, then completely dismisses vacuum systems, which remove most oxygen out of the bottle. Scientifically, this MUST be superior to simply replacing the cork (or screw cap in Australia). I’ve found that if I open the bottle and pour two glasses and immediately seal and vacuum (most of) the air out, I can get about 2-4 days of the wine tasting good stored at room temperature, versus about 1 day simply replacing the lid.
- carlmr 6y agoYeah, I have great experience with vacuvin, except that my first vacuum piston broke after 2 years. I even drank a wine after 10 days that, while not great, was still drinkable. It was like a 2 day open bottle roughly.
- tetrazine 6y ago> Scientifically, this MUST be superior to simply replacing the cork (or screw cap in Australia). Why must this be the case? This is a genuine question, not a pure objection. Consider two oxygen levels, o_1 and o_2, where o_2 << o_1 due to vacuum removal. Consider a set of chemical reactions that occur between wine and the surrounding environment. Of oxygen, glass, trace chemicals, cosmic rays, astological auras, etc. Let ℜ be the set of chemical reations that affect phenomenological quality (flavour) (presumably negatively, as a just-opened bottle of wine is at the peak of quality and can only degrade). Why must it be the case that o_2 is the limiting factor for all, or even some, of the elements of ℜ? What if another quantity (surface area, pressure, etc) limits the pace or extent of the reaction, and just as much degradation occurs with partial vacuuming (o_2) as without (o_1)? Perhaps you or someone else is a wine chemist, professional or amateur, and can enlighten me. Until that point, there are more things in heaven and Earth, dear dhsysusbsjsi, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- cdecoy 6y agoCurious if you can describe the setup you use for dispensing Argon into the bottle from the tank.
- Syzygies 6y agoMy receipt from 2017 says I also bought a RAD64003037 Regulator Flow Gauge with 10' hose. $120. It's easy though. Tell them what you're doing, and take their advice. I cut the 10' hose in half, and promptly lost one of the halves. I set up the cut end so it was inches away from fitting into a bottle on the shelf, for dispensing. Here's a photo: https://komodokamadoforum.com/topic/8968-funky-old-cow/?tab=comments#comment-106746 https://komodokamadoforum.com/topic/8968-funky-old-cow/?tab=... After the obligatory lecture on medical grade argon versus what I was buying (no difference besides a title), the guy tried seven times to talk me up from a 20# tank (which they don't always have) to a 40# tank (smallest standard size, same price to refill). I kept telling him I wanted to stay married. Then the tank ended up in the "middle shed" with the chamber vacuum sealer. When I went for a refill I reminded him of this hilarious conversation, and upgraded to a 40# tank that's still going strong.
- rsync 6y agoWhy argon instead of CO2 ? I displace air from primary fermenters using CO2 and have had good success ... I would be open-minded to switching to argon but wonder if there is a reason ...
- Syzygies 6y agoGiven a free choice, I chose the heavier argon. I'd seen it in use in an SF wine store where one could try fifty wines. (An obsessive friend showed me this store. I have better follow-through.) It is said that CO2 can carbonate your wine. If you haven't experienced this, you're fine. I know no reason to actively prefer CO2 to argon, if one is making a free choice.
- rsync 6y ago
- colordrops 6y agoIs there any concern about contaminants in non-food grade argon?
- slim 6y agoI'm not sure most wine would qualify for food grade
- rprwhite 6y agoIt depends on the gas supplier. For the suppliers I deal with the difference between food grade and non-food grade is for insurance purposes.
- Cerium 6y agoYou can ask or check the SDS from your supplier. I just checked a local suppers SDS and it listed that there were no known contaminants posting a safety hazard.
- idlewords 6y agoThis comment is a good reminder that you don't need the argon if you just drink the bottle.
- eps 6y agoI'd be interested to hear why you think buying magnums is better.
- jeromenerf 6y agoThe bigger the bottle, the smaller the ratio between exchange surfaces/volume. Small ratio means slower reactions, longer conservation, which is empirically better. And you know, a big bottle, so you don’t have to leave the table.
- arijun 6y agoI think this is probably not right. If you always have exactly one bottle open, the magnum will always have more total surface area. If you drink less than 750 ml from both, yes the ratio of area/volume will be smaller, but conversely it also means you are tainting more wine. And if you wanted that effect, you could always open the second bottle the next day and mix the two regular sized bottles.
- rprwhite 6y agoYour right - where this comes most in to play is that the wine isn’t stationary. Every time you pour, which will happen more often with a magnum, you encourage interaction between the wine and atmosphere.
- mellavora 6y agoMy friend the professional sommelier says a magnum is the perfect size to share with a friend for lunch. Especially if the friend is driving so they can't drink too much.
- mschuetz 6y ago> Most wines don't handle the abuse of an open day well. I've had a wine that, although initially intended as a cooking wine, tasted fantastic 4 weeks after opening it.
- Arech 6y agoYes, some wines do that. I think, very rarely in general, but I've encountered that too. This occurs more commonly with stronger beverages, such as cognacs/brandys, btw.
- louhike 6y agoFor some strong beverages, it's actually recommended to let it "breathe" several hours, to allow the alcohol to dissipate a little, which make the "good" flavors emphasized.
- jberryman 6y agoJust pointing out there's no objective evidence I could find in this thread, the linked article, or on a quick Google scholar search that a bottle of wine degrades or even changes significantly after N days open.
- cammikebrown 6y agoHere’s some info for you, googled “wine oxidation”: https://daily.sevenfifty.com/the-science-of-wine-oxidation/ https://daily.sevenfifty.com/the-science-of-wine-oxidation/ https://www.winemag.com/2019/04/09/wine-oxidation/ https://www.winemag.com/2019/04/09/wine-oxidation/ https://www.winespectator.com/articles/why-is-wine-oxidation-bad-53941 https://www.winespectator.com/articles/why-is-wine-oxidation...
- DennisP 6y agoThis may be a dumb question but if a tank that size were to somehow release all its argon in an average house, would it be dangerous?
- convolvatron 6y agoI don't think there is a concern about suffocation. but you should be aware that these tanks are pressurized to 2500 psi (in the states), and that can get pretty dangerous. use a new regulator with an overpressure release valve. myth busters did a segment where they chopped the top valve off a tank - it shot all 100lbs of steel through a cinderblock wall.
- jimnotgym 6y agoI had some experience with a commercial (restaurant sized) wine dispenser that used nitrogen
- easyas101110110 6y agoDon't do this. Industrial argon isn't necessarily clean enough for food-grade purposes and may well contain unknown / poisonous substances. You should know better than to make hazardous recommendations.
- brmgb 6y agoIndustrial argon is produced by fractional distillation of air and is a mostly inert gaz. Most of it is not food rated because it's mostly useless in food production. You are taking an extremely limited risk by using it to displace air in a wine bottle especially considering you are not actually puting it inside the wine. Obviously you should use food rated argon if you want to be safe. It's just going to be more expensive and harder to source.
- sillysaurusx 6y agoObviously you should use food rated argon if you want to be safe. Ah yes, the common problem all of us face in our daily lives. “If you want to be safe” doesn’t really jive with “extremely limited risk.”
- brmgb 6y ago> “If you want to be safe” doesn’t really jive with “extremely limited risk.” Of course it does. To put it bluntly, it is extremely likely that any bottle of industrial argon is actually food safe because it's produced in basically the same condition that food safe argon. The main impurity while producing argon is oxygen. The main difference between industrial and food safe argon will be how their container is handled but argon as an environment is not really suited to bacterial development. If you don't feel okay taking this risk, you can buy food grade argon which, well, is guaranteed to be food safe. Also, don't get me wrong, I'm specifically talking about argon there. I would never use industrial distilled water or ethanol with food for example. That would be risky. I have heard of people using industrial CO2 to carbonate beverage. That makes me uneasy because CO2 is a good solvent.
- Syzygies 6y ago
- stjohnswarts 6y agoIs there a reason to use argon rather than CO2 ?
- MagnumOpus 6y agoCO2 is how you carbonate a beverage. CO2 can dissolve in the liquid and makes it more fizzy and acidic-tasting. That would be desirable for champagne but most likely not for wine.
- newdude116 6y agoYour posting sounds weird. "Yes, argon is heavier than air, but there's this thing called diffusion." What has diffusion to do with it? Nothing. Most diffusion effects in our life are negligible because of convection. I had to check how much argon costs. It is indeed not very expensive. Why do you need medical grade? What "toxins" do you expect? This is an overkill for 99% of the population. Does your wife ask "Did you argon the olive oil?" too?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]