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A third possibility: Greenwald has bought heavily into the same cultural zeitgeist that is extremely prevalent on this forum: that "SJWs" and progressives will

A third possibility: Greenwald has bought heavily into the same cultural zeitgeist that is extremely prevalent on this forum: that "SJWs" and progressives will somehow destroy the fabric of neoliberalism. He's not warning us of something only he can see, so much as he's repurposing the same, tired alt-right arguments for an audience that doesn't necessarily identify as alt-right.

zpeti 6y ago
Except it was Obama that jailed the most whistleblowers in history. Who didn’t pardon Snowden either. But yeah, it’s all an alt right conspiracy.
- hire_charts 6y ago
  Except this exact same argument, nearly verbatim, was one of the alt-right anti-Obama talking points! It's a solid criticism too - don't get me wrong. But it's a single argument, reused over and over, to do more than simply criticize the actions of an administration - rather, to construct a grand conspiracy about how modern Democrats and progressives are secretly authoritarians. Nothing Greenwald writes these days goes beyond this tired trope. (Which, I suppose, would make perfect sense to anyone who has similarly bought into this conspiracy.)
  - zepto 6y ago
    “to construct a grand conspiracy about how modern Democrats and progressives are secretly authoritarians“ Can you explain where the idea that there is a conspiracy, or a secret comes from? I don’t see Greenwald or the other repeaters of this ‘tired’ argument actually claiming there is a conspiracy. The argument seems to be that people who say they are liberals are behaving like authoritarians when you actually look at their actions, rather than their words. I don’t see why a conspiracy is needed for that to be true.
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      Greenwald has been writing about what an terrible enabler of the survellience state Nancy Pelosi was for almost 15 years. She hasn't changed her opinions much in that time. And to be fair, the Democratic Party, while mostly still tethered to consensus reality, would be a center-right party in pretty much every country in Europe.
      - zepto 6y ago
        I’d say your first paragraph is facts, and the second is an opinion that is often cited but only partially true because what left-right means in ‘Europe’ is different from what it means in the US. However... It’s unclear what these two points have to do with either the original piece or my comment to which you replied. Can you relate them in some way? How do they shed light on the idea that Greenwald is not claiming there is a conspiracy?
        disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        The relationship is that Greenwald is a progressive, and would likely be more supportive of the democratic party if they were an actual left-wing party. I'm sure he'd still be as upset by the survellience, but he'd probably cut them more slack if he liked their policies more. Also, it's naive to expect the Dems to be better on survellience when we have years of evidence that this is not the case.
        zepto 6y ago
        I agree that it’s ‘naive’ to expect the Dems to be better on surveillance, but it’s not clear how this relates to what Greenwald wrote. He is writing about what he sees happening, not his expectations. Can you explain where the idea that there is a conspiracy, or a secret comes from?
        disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        So, I've been following US politics for most of my adult life, since Bush 2. In that time, the ratcheting up of survellience has only gone one way regardless of who's in power. I believe that Greenwald sees things similarly.

zpeti 6y ago

Except it was Obama that jailed the most whistleblowers in history. Who didn’t pardon Snowden either. But yeah, it’s all an alt right conspiracy.

hire_charts 6y ago
Except this exact same argument, nearly verbatim, was one of the alt-right anti-Obama talking points! It's a solid criticism too - don't get me wrong. But it's a single argument, reused over and over, to do more than simply criticize the actions of an administration - rather, to construct a grand conspiracy about how modern Democrats and progressives are secretly authoritarians. Nothing Greenwald writes these days goes beyond this tired trope. (Which, I suppose, would make perfect sense to anyone who has similarly bought into this conspiracy.)
- zepto 6y ago
  “to construct a grand conspiracy about how modern Democrats and progressives are secretly authoritarians“ Can you explain where the idea that there is a conspiracy, or a secret comes from? I don’t see Greenwald or the other repeaters of this ‘tired’ argument actually claiming there is a conspiracy. The argument seems to be that people who say they are liberals are behaving like authoritarians when you actually look at their actions, rather than their words. I don’t see why a conspiracy is needed for that to be true.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    Greenwald has been writing about what an terrible enabler of the survellience state Nancy Pelosi was for almost 15 years. She hasn't changed her opinions much in that time. And to be fair, the Democratic Party, while mostly still tethered to consensus reality, would be a center-right party in pretty much every country in Europe.
    - zepto 6y ago
      I’d say your first paragraph is facts, and the second is an opinion that is often cited but only partially true because what left-right means in ‘Europe’ is different from what it means in the US. However... It’s unclear what these two points have to do with either the original piece or my comment to which you replied. Can you relate them in some way? How do they shed light on the idea that Greenwald is not claiming there is a conspiracy?
      - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        The relationship is that Greenwald is a progressive, and would likely be more supportive of the democratic party if they were an actual left-wing party. I'm sure he'd still be as upset by the survellience, but he'd probably cut them more slack if he liked their policies more. Also, it's naive to expect the Dems to be better on survellience when we have years of evidence that this is not the case.
        zepto 6y ago
        I agree that it’s ‘naive’ to expect the Dems to be better on surveillance, but it’s not clear how this relates to what Greenwald wrote. He is writing about what he sees happening, not his expectations. Can you explain where the idea that there is a conspiracy, or a secret comes from?
        disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        So, I've been following US politics for most of my adult life, since Bush 2. In that time, the ratcheting up of survellience has only gone one way regardless of who's in power. I believe that Greenwald sees things similarly.