8 ms·

If that was an actual insurrection or attempted assassination, it was the weakest effort imaginable. That doesn’t necessarily change the thrust of your comment

If that was an actual insurrection or attempted assassination, it was the weakest effort imaginable. That doesn’t necessarily change the thrust of your comment (that enforcement is appropriate) but the breathless hyperbole around what happened has really surprised me. An actual insurrection would have looked very different. More guns and C4, fewer selfies.

Denvercoder9 6y ago
You assume that competency is a requirement for insurrection. It is not.
api 6y ago
Look into Mussolini and Hitler's early attempts. They looked really amateur and ridiculous too. The Munich Beer Hall Putsch was almost as much of a clown show. You even had some volkisch occult wackos who would have felt quite at home with the Q shaman.
- tiziniano 6y ago
  Look into the burning of the Reichstag...
  - api 6y ago
    That was later. I’m talking about the early stuff.
caseysoftware 6y ago
"More guns" is right. I watched it live and then dug through the videos, selfies, etc after and inside the Capitol, I found one guy who might have had a gun. The other weapons appear to have been convenient - a fire extinguisher, flags, etc. It looks less and less like an "insurrection" and more like jackasses doing jackass things.
- taneq 6y ago
  This is a good point - this is the same group that is very gun rights focused and has been wandering around the streets armed with automatic weapons. It's kind of weird to see them without guns.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    I don't know what the framework was, but open carry wasn't allowed prior to the rally. This article quotes the police chief saying as much: https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/protests/march-for-trump-rally-dc-january-6-protest-pro-trump-demonstrators-event-details/65-2e019324-7861-48fa-8d78-d99b9617558b https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/protests/march-for-t... I would also expect anyone coming from the rally had been through some security screening.
    - caseysoftware 6y ago
      Relevant data points: - Open Carry is always illegal in DC. - DC does issue concealed carry permits but doesn't honor them from other states (called reciprocity). - This was talked about far and wide in advance on Twitter, Facebook, and elsewhere framed as "don't bring guns to DC! You will go to jail!" and supported by flyers posted throughout DC. (You can still find pictures of them online.)
      - suifbwish 6y ago
        I believe breaking into the capitol building is also illegal so I fail to see why people who are already breaking one law would care about the others
        KMag 6y ago
        > why people who are already breaking one law would care about the others Remind me not to get in your way when you're jaywalking. Premeditating a felony firearms offense is one thing. I think the majority who entered the Capitol were probably thinking that most of the rhetoric they were hearing beforehand was hyperbole and were probably expecting to just protest outside the capital, and then got swept up in the moment and committed misdemeanor/felony breaking-and-entering.
stonecraftwolf 6y ago
Just because you failed at crime doesn’t mean you didn’t commit a crime. Attempted murder is still a thing. And I think you should probably read more about what actually happened. The initial photos were of idiots in horns and face paint and that has colored the public perception of what happened, but the clownshow gave cover to a smaller number of organized militia types compromised of former and active duty military and law enforcement. Those people were armed, came prepared, had intelligence about the layout of the building, and received updates on the location of MOC. They were there to kill and take hostages, and they came within minutes of achieving that goal. Nothing about this was laughable, and the concern is not overblown.
- hobs 6y ago
  Dont forget all the explosives that were removed.
  - gwright 6y ago
    My understanding was that the explosives were not at the capitol (DNC headquarters I think), but maybe I'm just out of date on additional information? Not saying that is good either, just that there were many things going on that day that aren't necessary related via any sort of coordinated operation.
- gwright 6y ago
  I think it is reasonable to argue that there were a number of people in the crowd that had ill intent. Not sure which crime fits the facts though (sedition, attempted murder, etc.) That will depend on actual facts, which is why we have trials, etc. I don't think it is reasonable to think that everyone on the Capitol grounds had that same ill intent. More likely that the organized minority instigated the crowd and used them as cover for their shameful and ridiculous efforts. Needless to say, the predominent narrative seems to be that anyone in the crowd was an "insurrectionist". That goes too far IMHO.
- caseysoftware 6y ago
  > a smaller number of organized militia types compromised of former and active duty military and law enforcement I haven't seen anything about this. Can you share a link - especially pictures or video? I'd love to learn more. Thanks.
shakna 6y ago
> More guns and C4, fewer selfies. It's not like there weren't homemade explosives found on the site: > Coffman, 70, told police he had mason jars filled with "melted Styrofoam and gasoline." Federal investigators believe that combination, if exploded, would have the effect of napalm "insofar as it causes the flammable liquid to better stick to objects that it hits upon detonation," according to the court record. [0] [0] https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/08/politics/us-capitol-riots-arrest-pelosi-desk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/08/politics/us-capitol-riots...
- jandrewrogers 6y ago
  FWIW, those aren't explosives. Flammable, yes, but definitely not explosive. Spreading gross misinformation like this is part of the problem.
  - pnw_hazor 6y ago
    It is not part of the problem, it is part of the plan. How else are we going to get bi-partisan support for the Domestic Terrorism Prevention Act of 2021
  - shakna 6y ago
    > The court documents said that those items and the explosive-filled mason jars "in close proximity to one another constitute a combination of parts" that could be used as a "destructive device." I used "explosive" because that was how it appeared in the court filings. Without knowing the precise mixture, it could result as either something to cause a conflagration, or a detonation. Calling it misinformation is somewhat disingenuous when not all the information is publicly available.
    - jandrewrogers 6y ago
      Your quote literally calls it a "destructive device", not an explosive, which is a term of art including mostly non-explosive things. The material in question is specified in the article. It is not explosive in any configuration as an incontrovertible matter of elementary chemistry. It does meet the criteria for being a destructive device in law. Calling this "misinformation" is an accurate characterization. You are not responsible for what CNN reports but it should lead you to question the credibility of that news source.

Denvercoder9 6y ago

You assume that competency is a requirement for insurrection. It is not.

api 6y ago

Look into Mussolini and Hitler's early attempts. They looked really amateur and ridiculous too. The Munich Beer Hall Putsch was almost as much of a clown show. You even had some volkisch occult wackos who would have felt quite at home with the Q shaman.

tiziniano 6y ago
Look into the burning of the Reichstag...
- api 6y ago
  That was later. I’m talking about the early stuff.

caseysoftware 6y ago

"More guns" is right. I watched it live and then dug through the videos, selfies, etc after and inside the Capitol, I found one guy who might have had a gun. The other weapons appear to have been convenient - a fire extinguisher, flags, etc. It looks less and less like an "insurrection" and more like jackasses doing jackass things.

taneq 6y ago
This is a good point - this is the same group that is very gun rights focused and has been wandering around the streets armed with automatic weapons. It's kind of weird to see them without guns.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  I don't know what the framework was, but open carry wasn't allowed prior to the rally. This article quotes the police chief saying as much: https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/protests/march-for-trump-rally-dc-january-6-protest-pro-trump-demonstrators-event-details/65-2e019324-7861-48fa-8d78-d99b9617558b https://www.kvue.com/article/news/local/protests/march-for-t... I would also expect anyone coming from the rally had been through some security screening.
  - caseysoftware 6y ago
    Relevant data points: - Open Carry is always illegal in DC. - DC does issue concealed carry permits but doesn't honor them from other states (called reciprocity). - This was talked about far and wide in advance on Twitter, Facebook, and elsewhere framed as "don't bring guns to DC! You will go to jail!" and supported by flyers posted throughout DC. (You can still find pictures of them online.)
    - suifbwish 6y ago
      I believe breaking into the capitol building is also illegal so I fail to see why people who are already breaking one law would care about the others
      - KMag 6y ago
        > why people who are already breaking one law would care about the others Remind me not to get in your way when you're jaywalking. Premeditating a felony firearms offense is one thing. I think the majority who entered the Capitol were probably thinking that most of the rhetoric they were hearing beforehand was hyperbole and were probably expecting to just protest outside the capital, and then got swept up in the moment and committed misdemeanor/felony breaking-and-entering.

stonecraftwolf 6y ago

Just because you failed at crime doesn’t mean you didn’t commit a crime. Attempted murder is still a thing. And I think you should probably read more about what actually happened. The initial photos were of idiots in horns and face paint and that has colored the public perception of what happened, but the clownshow gave cover to a smaller number of organized militia types compromised of former and active duty military and law enforcement. Those people were armed, came prepared, had intelligence about the layout of the building, and received updates on the location of MOC. They were there to kill and take hostages, and they came within minutes of achieving that goal. Nothing about this was laughable, and the concern is not overblown.

hobs 6y ago
Dont forget all the explosives that were removed.
- gwright 6y ago
  My understanding was that the explosives were not at the capitol (DNC headquarters I think), but maybe I'm just out of date on additional information? Not saying that is good either, just that there were many things going on that day that aren't necessary related via any sort of coordinated operation.
gwright 6y ago
I think it is reasonable to argue that there were a number of people in the crowd that had ill intent. Not sure which crime fits the facts though (sedition, attempted murder, etc.) That will depend on actual facts, which is why we have trials, etc. I don't think it is reasonable to think that everyone on the Capitol grounds had that same ill intent. More likely that the organized minority instigated the crowd and used them as cover for their shameful and ridiculous efforts. Needless to say, the predominent narrative seems to be that anyone in the crowd was an "insurrectionist". That goes too far IMHO.
caseysoftware 6y ago
> a smaller number of organized militia types compromised of former and active duty military and law enforcement I haven't seen anything about this. Can you share a link - especially pictures or video? I'd love to learn more. Thanks.

shakna 6y ago

> More guns and C4, fewer selfies. It's not like there weren't homemade explosives found on the site: > Coffman, 70, told police he had mason jars filled with "melted Styrofoam and gasoline." Federal investigators believe that combination, if exploded, would have the effect of napalm "insofar as it causes the flammable liquid to better stick to objects that it hits upon detonation," according to the court record. [0] [0] https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/08/politics/us-capitol-riots-arrest-pelosi-desk/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/08/politics/us-capitol-riots...

jandrewrogers 6y ago
FWIW, those aren't explosives. Flammable, yes, but definitely not explosive. Spreading gross misinformation like this is part of the problem.
- pnw_hazor 6y ago
  It is not part of the problem, it is part of the plan. How else are we going to get bi-partisan support for the Domestic Terrorism Prevention Act of 2021
- shakna 6y ago
  > The court documents said that those items and the explosive-filled mason jars "in close proximity to one another constitute a combination of parts" that could be used as a "destructive device." I used "explosive" because that was how it appeared in the court filings. Without knowing the precise mixture, it could result as either something to cause a conflagration, or a detonation. Calling it misinformation is somewhat disingenuous when not all the information is publicly available.
  - jandrewrogers 6y ago
    Your quote literally calls it a "destructive device", not an explosive, which is a term of art including mostly non-explosive things. The material in question is specified in the article. It is not explosive in any configuration as an incontrovertible matter of elementary chemistry. It does meet the criteria for being a destructive device in law. Calling this "misinformation" is an accurate characterization. You are not responsible for what CNN reports but it should lead you to question the credibility of that news source.