7 ms·

They wouldn’t feel like they need to bring Merry Christmas back if the overly politically correct voices hadn’t tried to cancel it in the first place.

ookdatnog 6y ago
This is an inversion of reality. If someone chooses to say "happy holidays" rather than "merry Christmas" out of sensitivity or political correctness, that does not constitute cancelling. The term cancelling is usually used for deliberate and sustained social pressure and boycotting campaigns. As far as I am aware this has not occurred on any significant scale to try to stop people from saying "merry Christmas". In the other direction, however, this has very much happened. Conservative Christian organizations have called for boycotts of companies who don't mention Christmas in their Christmas marketing (or, in some cases, even just for mentioning non-Christian holidays) repeatedly over the last two decades. [0] To avoid weak-manning here: I'm sure this is a pretty fringe group and not at all representative of Christians in general. But it is clear that the campaign to force people to use traditional Christmas greetings and imagery has always been more prominent and aggressive than the campaign to abolish traditional Christmas greetings. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_controversies#Retailer_controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_controversies#Retail...
- ndiscussion 6y ago
  Many companies don't allow their employees to say Merry Christmas, because it could offend customers. When you interact with public employees and 10 out of 10 say "Happy Holidays", it becomes a social norm. Breaking that norm then feels uncomfortable, and people who are already biased against Christians will seize the opportunity to say that Merry Christmas is insensitive. You can only say that the messaging for "Bring Back Merry Christmas" is more aggressive - the tactics on the Happy Holidays side are certainly ruthless, because there's a profit motive behind it.
  - ookdatnog 6y ago
    You can find that frustrating, but that doesn't make it cancelling. To be cancelling, it has to be a deliberately sustained campaign. In this case, as you said yourself, it's just a plain and simple profit motive. Companies want as broad appeal as possible, so they instruct their employees to use neutral greetings. There is no intent there to destroy the traditional greeting, so it's clearly not cancelling.
    - ndiscussion 6y ago
      We can certainly debate on the intent, but ultimately, the result is the same - no one says Merry Christmas anymore, and Christians are sometimes sad about this. I think it feeds into the feeling of victimhood. It seems all-encompassing. Which makes these people sternly-pro-Merry-Christmas.
      - kaitai 6y ago
        I think this is so weird. I live in a "democrat-run city" to use a phrase popularized by the weird right, and people here say Merry Christmas if someone says Merry Christmas to them or they know each other from church, and say Happy Holidays if you don't know the holiday someone celebrates and they're not wearing a Christmas tree sweater. It's a pretty easy algorithm. I don't think anyone feels like Christmas spirit is lacking. Your last few sentences are right: the people I know who are outraged about the war on Christmas are Christians of a certain type who feel like they have not received what has been promised to them. They're well-off, have houses built for them in nice new suburban developments, have a couple cars, don't seem like they're hurting for money or jobs, but they've just really got a chip on their shoulder about other people getting what they deserve. I'm probably re-centering a category right now :) This was a very interesting article and it's fun to try to find all the examples of this I can.
      - ookdatnog 6y ago
        You have every right to lament or protest a trend that you don't like, but by claiming you're being cancelled, you are making a very strong claim about intent ("they" want to destroy our tradition), one that you fail to back up. This creates a harmful tribalism.
ineptech 6y ago
Try replacing "politically correct voices" with a proper noun. Who specifically is it that tried to cancel Christmas? And if you asked them if they are actually trying to cancel Christmas, would they say yes?
- camjohnson26 6y ago
  We’re talking about the greeting, not Christmas in general. I don’t think it’s controversial that it’s considered rude now to wish a stranger Merry Christmas, but here’s a Huffington Post article that argues against it for just one example: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/happy-holidays-instead-of_1_b_8859118 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/happy-holidays-instead-of_1_b... There are good reasons to know your audience before using the greeting, but it’s very rare to hear it at all in many parts of the US, which does seem strange when 90% of the country celebrates Christmas. Since Happy Thanksgiving and Happy Halloween are completely fine to say to a stranger I think it’s fair to say the greeting has been canceled, for better or worse, regardless of original intent.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > I don’t think it’s controversial that it’s considered rude now to wish a stranger Merry Christmas Yes, its very controversial to claim that is the general view. > here’s a Huffington Post article that argues against it But…it doesn’t argue either against saying Merry Christmas or that it is “rude” to say it (or that anything is “rude”.) It argues that it is illegal (a form of workplace religious discrimination) for your boss to compel you to say it, outside of narrow circumstances where it may be a bona fide job requirement. This confusion of arguments that being compelled by government, an employer, etc. to do X is improper and/or illegal with arguments that choosing on your own to do X is immoral, rude, etc. is sadly common.
    - camjohnson26 6y ago
      I disagree, this is from the article: “If you do celebrate Christmas, then please don’t forget that there are many other religious holidays being celebrated in December. Some of your customers and coworkers may not want to have Christmas shoved down their throats.” It definitely might be clickbait but it was one of the first Google results. Clearly at least some people think the greeting is “shoving Christmas down their throats”

ookdatnog 6y ago

This is an inversion of reality. If someone chooses to say "happy holidays" rather than "merry Christmas" out of sensitivity or political correctness, that does not constitute cancelling. The term cancelling is usually used for deliberate and sustained social pressure and boycotting campaigns. As far as I am aware this has not occurred on any significant scale to try to stop people from saying "merry Christmas". In the other direction, however, this has very much happened. Conservative Christian organizations have called for boycotts of companies who don't mention Christmas in their Christmas marketing (or, in some cases, even just for mentioning non-Christian holidays) repeatedly over the last two decades. [0] To avoid weak-manning here: I'm sure this is a pretty fringe group and not at all representative of Christians in general. But it is clear that the campaign to force people to use traditional Christmas greetings and imagery has always been more prominent and aggressive than the campaign to abolish traditional Christmas greetings. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_controversies#Retailer_controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_controversies#Retail...

ndiscussion 6y ago
Many companies don't allow their employees to say Merry Christmas, because it could offend customers. When you interact with public employees and 10 out of 10 say "Happy Holidays", it becomes a social norm. Breaking that norm then feels uncomfortable, and people who are already biased against Christians will seize the opportunity to say that Merry Christmas is insensitive. You can only say that the messaging for "Bring Back Merry Christmas" is more aggressive - the tactics on the Happy Holidays side are certainly ruthless, because there's a profit motive behind it.
- ookdatnog 6y ago
  You can find that frustrating, but that doesn't make it cancelling. To be cancelling, it has to be a deliberately sustained campaign. In this case, as you said yourself, it's just a plain and simple profit motive. Companies want as broad appeal as possible, so they instruct their employees to use neutral greetings. There is no intent there to destroy the traditional greeting, so it's clearly not cancelling.
  - ndiscussion 6y ago
    We can certainly debate on the intent, but ultimately, the result is the same - no one says Merry Christmas anymore, and Christians are sometimes sad about this. I think it feeds into the feeling of victimhood. It seems all-encompassing. Which makes these people sternly-pro-Merry-Christmas.
    - kaitai 6y ago
      I think this is so weird. I live in a "democrat-run city" to use a phrase popularized by the weird right, and people here say Merry Christmas if someone says Merry Christmas to them or they know each other from church, and say Happy Holidays if you don't know the holiday someone celebrates and they're not wearing a Christmas tree sweater. It's a pretty easy algorithm. I don't think anyone feels like Christmas spirit is lacking. Your last few sentences are right: the people I know who are outraged about the war on Christmas are Christians of a certain type who feel like they have not received what has been promised to them. They're well-off, have houses built for them in nice new suburban developments, have a couple cars, don't seem like they're hurting for money or jobs, but they've just really got a chip on their shoulder about other people getting what they deserve. I'm probably re-centering a category right now :) This was a very interesting article and it's fun to try to find all the examples of this I can.
    - ookdatnog 6y ago
      You have every right to lament or protest a trend that you don't like, but by claiming you're being cancelled, you are making a very strong claim about intent ("they" want to destroy our tradition), one that you fail to back up. This creates a harmful tribalism.

ineptech 6y ago

Try replacing "politically correct voices" with a proper noun. Who specifically is it that tried to cancel Christmas? And if you asked them if they are actually trying to cancel Christmas, would they say yes?

camjohnson26 6y ago
We’re talking about the greeting, not Christmas in general. I don’t think it’s controversial that it’s considered rude now to wish a stranger Merry Christmas, but here’s a Huffington Post article that argues against it for just one example: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/happy-holidays-instead-of_1_b_8859118 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/happy-holidays-instead-of_1_b... There are good reasons to know your audience before using the greeting, but it’s very rare to hear it at all in many parts of the US, which does seem strange when 90% of the country celebrates Christmas. Since Happy Thanksgiving and Happy Halloween are completely fine to say to a stranger I think it’s fair to say the greeting has been canceled, for better or worse, regardless of original intent.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > I don’t think it’s controversial that it’s considered rude now to wish a stranger Merry Christmas Yes, its very controversial to claim that is the general view. > here’s a Huffington Post article that argues against it But…it doesn’t argue either against saying Merry Christmas or that it is “rude” to say it (or that anything is “rude”.) It argues that it is illegal (a form of workplace religious discrimination) for your boss to compel you to say it, outside of narrow circumstances where it may be a bona fide job requirement. This confusion of arguments that being compelled by government, an employer, etc. to do X is improper and/or illegal with arguments that choosing on your own to do X is immoral, rude, etc. is sadly common.
  - camjohnson26 6y ago
    I disagree, this is from the article: “If you do celebrate Christmas, then please don’t forget that there are many other religious holidays being celebrated in December. Some of your customers and coworkers may not want to have Christmas shoved down their throats.” It definitely might be clickbait but it was one of the first Google results. Clearly at least some people think the greeting is “shoving Christmas down their throats”