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This is great. As an EV owner for almost 2 years now let me tell you you'll love the speed and savings See my energy usage and cost spreadsheet for details. Sc

This is great. As an EV owner for almost 2 years now let me tell you you'll love the speed and savings See my energy usage and cost spreadsheet for details. Scroll to the right for the charts. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16JLSzoWA0154ZUU3ahJ_O4LorGFFrc1defUCKisrGVE/edit?usp=drivesdk https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16JLSzoWA0154ZUU3ahJ_...

dannyw 6y ago
This will become relevant to me when I can buy a second hand, fully-electric vehicle for $5000-7500.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Used Nissan Leafs and Bolts are abundant at that price point. Assume it’ll be a while before Teslas reach that used price point, eventually they will though.
  - Scoundreller 6y ago
    Leafs are problematic because they lacked battery thermal management.
    - whalesalad 6y ago
      Someone in my neighborhood has a leaf with the license plate NORANGE
    - cptskippy 6y ago
      Eh... yes but no. The lizard battery chemistry introduced around 2014 addressed a lot of the issues with degradation and those issues really only came up in climates like Arizona and Texas with punishing heat. Unless you're driving a lot during extreme heat waves or DC Fast Charging regularly, you'll be fine in most climates. Thermal Management Systems are definitely better but it's not really problematic.
      - throwawayboise 6y ago
        How much range do you lose when it's 15 degrees and you have to park outside? And you need to heat the interior?
        cptskippy 6y ago
        From my experience, cold doesn't really impact the range in an appreciable way. Driving habits, mood, and behavior have more of an impact on the range than anything else. I have a 2015 with a heat pump, heated seats, and heated steering wheel so it takes very little to get comfortable. And it gets comfortable about 15 minutes faster than my old 2007 Honda Accord did. I can't speak for the 2nd Gen models but the 1st Gen models with the Sat Nav infotainment have a power monitor screen that shows how much power systems are drawing and how much range you gain when shutting them down. I've never seen a gain of more than 5 miles when 100% charged, it's usually 2 miles. Only one time have I been in a situation where that mattered and it was entirely my own fault. Another thing to consider is, that unless your commute consumes the entire range of the vehicle then it doesn't really matter as long as you can charge every night. I use to have a 50 mile round trip commute and I would charge on a regular 120v circuit every night when I got home, I never had issues. If I needed to run an errand I could plug the car in at work and come out with 100% charge at the end of the day.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- radium3d 6y ago
  You can get a 120 mile range 2016 eGolf for a great price right now. Check it out. Bolt's are also going for very low cost ~$16-17k just a couple years old now.
  - throwawayboise 6y ago
    $16,000 is 4x what I paid for my last car, a big comfortable Volvo.
    - radium3d 6y ago
      How much money went to burnt gas instead of your next car since you bought it though?
wuschel 6y ago
Just had a quick look. Did you compare theoretical (gasoline) vs measured (electric) values? The cost difference is quite significant. What is the error here? While I knew electric engines can be more efficient, I was surprised by these numbers.
- mlyle 6y ago
  This is about right. A lot of comparisons are slightly off because they use the energy numbers from the car itself which leave out charger inefficiency --- which can be rather bad on Tesla --- but it doesn't change the big picture. On the other hand, you need to consider the amortized cost of the vehicle itself; both a higher vehicle cost and the likelihood of a somewhat lower vehicle lifetime. Maybe increased performance counteracts some of this for you? Further complicating things is maintenance. Oil changes are avoided. Brake pad changes are reduced. But tire wear is usually increased... And after all this, there's the convenience differences (both ways). You never need to go to a gas station for a normal drive. But road trips suck a lot more.
  - radium3d 6y ago
    To be fair, road trips wouldn't suck a lot more, you just get to stretch your legs after 2 hours of driving (or a lot more if you have one of the 400 mile range model S!) I'd hope you stop to pee or something after 400 miles of driving Lol
    - mlyle 6y ago
      You still have fewer choices of where to stop/eat and will be stopping longer.
- mrpopo 6y ago
  An IC engine is 20-30% efficient depending on the technology (the rest is waste heat). An electric engine is 80-90%. Even if you imagine the electricity comes from a gasoline power plant, the efficiency at the plant will be higher than a regular car ICE because of scale benefits + use of a cold sink (ocean/river).
symlinkk 6y ago
I always find it weird that people who have enough money to spend $40k (minimum) on a Tesla care so much about saving $80/mo.
- radium3d 6y ago
  When I purchased the Model 3 SR+ the cost before tax was $32,790.00 including the Federal and State EV incentives in May 2019.
- kwhitefoot 6y ago
  Some of us spent a little more on the car partly in order to reduce cost of fuel not because the price of the car was pocket money.
brummm 6y ago
So this is something I keep asking myself. The largest part of the savings comes from the fact that electricity is much cheaper compared to gasoline on a 100km basis. Now, the reason gasoline is so expensive is the massive amount of taxes charged. However, those taxes directly fund the building and maintenance of the road infrastructure. Currently, EV owners essentially get to ride for free on that infrastructure since they aren't paying gasoline taxes. Consequently, with more and more people switching over, the amount of taxes available for road maintenace, etc. will decrease and the electricity for driving will have to be taxed much in the same way as gasoline is and thus eliminating the savings early adopters are currently enjoying.
- durkie 6y ago
  I think you're right that the road tax structure will have to change as we move away from ICE cars, but I think the likelihood of electricity becoming more expensive is every low. Electricity is too ubiquitous, and its price should fall tremendously in the coming years (new solar projects being quoted at 2c/kwh and falling in several parts of the world)
  - brummm 6y ago
    I don't think electricity will increase in price, but electricity used for moving a car will be taxed much like gasoline currently is. So the electricity used at home will stay the same, but the one used in car battery chargers will be a multiple of the price of normal electricity.
- radium3d 6y ago
  I think you're missing the efficiency aspect. Gasoline carries a much larger amount of energy so having a far more energy efficient, say in my example 26mpg going to 130+mpg saves a lot in energy cost as well. We do not ride for free. We pay an extra ~$100 a year (formula based on cost of car. I think it should be based on the weight of the vehicle personally. My Model 3 SR+ doesn't weigh any more than a regular gasoline car) for registration here in California which covers the road maintenance so no need to worry there.
yurishimo 6y ago
How far is your commute? $200/mo for any decently efficient car is quite a bit. We use around $150/mo for a 2012 CR-V and my spouse has a 45 mile commute round trip in city traffic. This is Texas, so I guess I should mention gas is 30% cheaper than California. I suppose that could make up the difference...
- radium3d 6y ago
  Yeah, gas costs a lot more here in California. I don't really commute a long distance but I do take my cars on road trips often and I'm the one who drives most often with friends (before covid anyway)
- cptskippy 6y ago
  I was paying ~$180/mo driving a 2007 Honda Accord on a 50 mile round-trip commute. When I got a 2015 Nissan Leaf, my power bill went up about $25 a month and I spent about $25 a month at charging stations.
Hamuko 6y ago
>let me tell you you'll love the speed and savings These better be some insane savings considering my car cost 22k€ and the cheapest Tesla available (2014 Model S with 279 000 km driven) is 38k€.
- radium3d 6y ago
  It may be cheaper to go new with incentives vs used straight off Tesla.com, but I am unsure about overseas pricing.
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    It definitely isn't here. A new Tesla Model S (Long Range Plus) is 89,864 € and a new Tesla Model 3 (Standard Range Plus) is 50,560 €. If the 600 € documentation fee doesn't apply to the 50,000 € max price restriction, you might be able to get a 2,000 € incentive for the Model 3, which would bring it down to 48,560 €. For comparison, a new Mercedes-Benz C-Class starts at 38,750 € and a Volkswagen Golf starts at 24,400 €.

dannyw 6y ago

This will become relevant to me when I can buy a second hand, fully-electric vehicle for $5000-7500.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Used Nissan Leafs and Bolts are abundant at that price point. Assume it’ll be a while before Teslas reach that used price point, eventually they will though.
- Scoundreller 6y ago
  Leafs are problematic because they lacked battery thermal management.
  - whalesalad 6y ago
    Someone in my neighborhood has a leaf with the license plate NORANGE
  - cptskippy 6y ago
    Eh... yes but no. The lizard battery chemistry introduced around 2014 addressed a lot of the issues with degradation and those issues really only came up in climates like Arizona and Texas with punishing heat. Unless you're driving a lot during extreme heat waves or DC Fast Charging regularly, you'll be fine in most climates. Thermal Management Systems are definitely better but it's not really problematic.
    - throwawayboise 6y ago
      How much range do you lose when it's 15 degrees and you have to park outside? And you need to heat the interior?
      - cptskippy 6y ago
        From my experience, cold doesn't really impact the range in an appreciable way. Driving habits, mood, and behavior have more of an impact on the range than anything else. I have a 2015 with a heat pump, heated seats, and heated steering wheel so it takes very little to get comfortable. And it gets comfortable about 15 minutes faster than my old 2007 Honda Accord did. I can't speak for the 2nd Gen models but the 1st Gen models with the Sat Nav infotainment have a power monitor screen that shows how much power systems are drawing and how much range you gain when shutting them down. I've never seen a gain of more than 5 miles when 100% charged, it's usually 2 miles. Only one time have I been in a situation where that mattered and it was entirely my own fault. Another thing to consider is, that unless your commute consumes the entire range of the vehicle then it doesn't really matter as long as you can charge every night. I use to have a 50 mile round trip commute and I would charge on a regular 120v circuit every night when I got home, I never had issues. If I needed to run an errand I could plug the car in at work and come out with 100% charge at the end of the day.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
radium3d 6y ago
You can get a 120 mile range 2016 eGolf for a great price right now. Check it out. Bolt's are also going for very low cost ~$16-17k just a couple years old now.
- throwawayboise 6y ago
  $16,000 is 4x what I paid for my last car, a big comfortable Volvo.
  - radium3d 6y ago
    How much money went to burnt gas instead of your next car since you bought it though?

wuschel 6y ago

Just had a quick look. Did you compare theoretical (gasoline) vs measured (electric) values? The cost difference is quite significant. What is the error here? While I knew electric engines can be more efficient, I was surprised by these numbers.

mlyle 6y ago
This is about right. A lot of comparisons are slightly off because they use the energy numbers from the car itself which leave out charger inefficiency --- which can be rather bad on Tesla --- but it doesn't change the big picture. On the other hand, you need to consider the amortized cost of the vehicle itself; both a higher vehicle cost and the likelihood of a somewhat lower vehicle lifetime. Maybe increased performance counteracts some of this for you? Further complicating things is maintenance. Oil changes are avoided. Brake pad changes are reduced. But tire wear is usually increased... And after all this, there's the convenience differences (both ways). You never need to go to a gas station for a normal drive. But road trips suck a lot more.
- radium3d 6y ago
  To be fair, road trips wouldn't suck a lot more, you just get to stretch your legs after 2 hours of driving (or a lot more if you have one of the 400 mile range model S!) I'd hope you stop to pee or something after 400 miles of driving Lol
  - mlyle 6y ago
    You still have fewer choices of where to stop/eat and will be stopping longer.
mrpopo 6y ago
An IC engine is 20-30% efficient depending on the technology (the rest is waste heat). An electric engine is 80-90%. Even if you imagine the electricity comes from a gasoline power plant, the efficiency at the plant will be higher than a regular car ICE because of scale benefits + use of a cold sink (ocean/river).

symlinkk 6y ago

I always find it weird that people who have enough money to spend $40k (minimum) on a Tesla care so much about saving $80/mo.

radium3d 6y ago
When I purchased the Model 3 SR+ the cost before tax was $32,790.00 including the Federal and State EV incentives in May 2019.
kwhitefoot 6y ago
Some of us spent a little more on the car partly in order to reduce cost of fuel not because the price of the car was pocket money.

brummm 6y ago

So this is something I keep asking myself. The largest part of the savings comes from the fact that electricity is much cheaper compared to gasoline on a 100km basis. Now, the reason gasoline is so expensive is the massive amount of taxes charged. However, those taxes directly fund the building and maintenance of the road infrastructure. Currently, EV owners essentially get to ride for free on that infrastructure since they aren't paying gasoline taxes. Consequently, with more and more people switching over, the amount of taxes available for road maintenace, etc. will decrease and the electricity for driving will have to be taxed much in the same way as gasoline is and thus eliminating the savings early adopters are currently enjoying.

durkie 6y ago
I think you're right that the road tax structure will have to change as we move away from ICE cars, but I think the likelihood of electricity becoming more expensive is every low. Electricity is too ubiquitous, and its price should fall tremendously in the coming years (new solar projects being quoted at 2c/kwh and falling in several parts of the world)
- brummm 6y ago
  I don't think electricity will increase in price, but electricity used for moving a car will be taxed much like gasoline currently is. So the electricity used at home will stay the same, but the one used in car battery chargers will be a multiple of the price of normal electricity.
radium3d 6y ago
I think you're missing the efficiency aspect. Gasoline carries a much larger amount of energy so having a far more energy efficient, say in my example 26mpg going to 130+mpg saves a lot in energy cost as well. We do not ride for free. We pay an extra ~$100 a year (formula based on cost of car. I think it should be based on the weight of the vehicle personally. My Model 3 SR+ doesn't weigh any more than a regular gasoline car) for registration here in California which covers the road maintenance so no need to worry there.

yurishimo 6y ago

How far is your commute? $200/mo for any decently efficient car is quite a bit. We use around $150/mo for a 2012 CR-V and my spouse has a 45 mile commute round trip in city traffic. This is Texas, so I guess I should mention gas is 30% cheaper than California. I suppose that could make up the difference...

radium3d 6y ago
Yeah, gas costs a lot more here in California. I don't really commute a long distance but I do take my cars on road trips often and I'm the one who drives most often with friends (before covid anyway)
cptskippy 6y ago
I was paying ~$180/mo driving a 2007 Honda Accord on a 50 mile round-trip commute. When I got a 2015 Nissan Leaf, my power bill went up about $25 a month and I spent about $25 a month at charging stations.

Hamuko 6y ago

>let me tell you you'll love the speed and savings These better be some insane savings considering my car cost 22k€ and the cheapest Tesla available (2014 Model S with 279 000 km driven) is 38k€.

radium3d 6y ago
It may be cheaper to go new with incentives vs used straight off Tesla.com, but I am unsure about overseas pricing.
- Hamuko 6y ago
  It definitely isn't here. A new Tesla Model S (Long Range Plus) is 89,864 € and a new Tesla Model 3 (Standard Range Plus) is 50,560 €. If the 600 € documentation fee doesn't apply to the 50,000 € max price restriction, you might be able to get a 2,000 € incentive for the Model 3, which would bring it down to 48,560 €. For comparison, a new Mercedes-Benz C-Class starts at 38,750 € and a Volkswagen Golf starts at 24,400 €.