5 ms·

Ask any pilot what the most complex part is about switching aircrafts and getting a new type rating. It's never the way the plane handles, is always either reme

Ask any pilot what the most complex part is about switching aircrafts and getting a new type rating. It's never the way the plane handles, is always either remembering the mandatory systems knowledge or how to use the FMS. I flew along on a small private jet recently, their system was 10x easier to understand and more capable than the typical airliner... So it is possible, probably even at a lower cost.

mshockwave 6y ago
are private jets under different regulations (rules)?
- bdavis__ 6y ago
  Yes. Both for pilots and the airplane.
- t0mas88 6y ago
  It depends on the weight, seat count and type of operation. Very generally speaking small jets with 9 seats or less and not being too heavy are CS-23 certified while larger (transport category) aircraft are CS-25. So the small jet in my example indeed has less regulations than a larger airliner. And would probably not be allowed to be used for commercial air transport, only charter flights.
- rbanffy 6y ago
  There is also less concern about training costs.
walrus01 6y ago
Cockpit user interface tour of one of the smallest private jets, the Phenom 300: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIAO0mnQU7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIAO0mnQU7g I recently watched a few videos of flights in the Cirrus Visionjet, literally the smallest and lowest cost single engine private jet aircraft on the market. Its electronic cockpit looks very straightforward and logical in design.
- TylerE 6y ago
  Jets are actually in many ways simpler than a piston engine.
  - 29083011397778 6y ago
    Mechanically simpler or not, I finished a Garmin install last week on a piston-engine Lancair. I would absolutely call the avionics and engine indicating systems intuitive and easy to use, even without being a pilot. While it's no G1000 or G3000, the G500 TXi, GTN 750 Xi, and GI 275 are all very straightforward, with engine indications being displayed on the G500 Xi in an easy to navigate package.
- briandear 6y ago
  The Vision Jet uses the Garmin G3000 which is an upgraded version of the G1000 which is quickly becoming the standard avionics for general aviation (new) airplanes. Incidentally the Phenom 300 uses the G3000 as well. If you can fly a G1000 in a Cirrus piston or Cessna, the G3000 is an easy transition. The avionics and FMS of a typical airliner is positively COBOL by comparison. To get type rated in modern GA jets is pretty easy because the avionics are generally what you are already used to. However, the G1000/G3000 aren’t part 25 certified, however there is now a G5000 that is Part 25 legal, so I expect there to be some considerable improvements trickling up into the bigger jets. (Part 25 is basically “transport category” aircraft.)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  Systems in small aircraft are a lot simpler than in airliners, by nature.
taneq 6y ago
This seems to be an almost universal problem at old, large engineering companies. Somewhere along the way (probably as they slowly ossify into bureaucracies) all passion for innovation slowly withers. I don't know what the answer is but attitudes generally flow down from the top, so I'd imagine a good start would be to somehow re-install creative technical people in the top-end leadership roles.
- ethbr0 6y ago
  It's a consequence of development times. Large, complex projects take a lot of calendar time. It's generally more important to keep things from going awry than excelling. Consequently, you look around and see nothing but conservative people putting in their time. If you're someone more driven, you get tired and leave.
- Zak 6y ago
  You're not wrong, but there's also an element of justifiable conservatism. Aviation killed a lot of people before the associated industry and community mostly figured out how to make sure they didn't. Trying something innovative sometimes introduces a safety issue that hadn't even been considered.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  Bureaucratic inefficiency isn't the problem in this case. The people who make these systems aren't optimizing for UX, they're optimizing for safety and reliability. It's the same reason banks are still running things like their 30yo COBOL code. The cost of replacing it isn't the problem. The problem is, if it's been running reliably for 30 years, then what justification could you possibly come up with for accepting the risk of replacing it?
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  I work in that industry, and I think it's very harsh to say that people have lost passion for innovation. Most engineers I've been around care about making a good product, and get excited about using better technology or finding a better design. However there's a constant care about making things that are certifiable, and make business sense (otherwise it's just not going to happen). It seems to me that it's difficult for people outside this type of industry to appreciate how certification impacts the decisions. We strive to make systems that are reliable, easy to use and maintain, and efficient; but they have to make their way to the customer, through the authorities and business constraints.
duxup 6y ago
At least as far what I've gathered reading airliner crash reports go (these obviously are going to be skewed) one of the challenges seems to be just being up to date / adjusting from one airliner to the next as far as procedure, and recovery processes for a given aircraft. Being behind the aircraft as far as interpreting the situation/ indicators and not knowing what recovery steps to take seem to be a reoccurring problem, at least as far as catastrophic type situations.
- breatheoften 6y ago
  As the scenario likelihood decreases, the probability of correctly identifying the associated recovery procedure probably also tends to decrease -- particularly for cases where recovery is not super clear and for cases where the scenario itself is memory intensive to describe or baroque -- "a occurred before b instead of b before a as normally expected and sensor d has condition c..." I wonder if simulated error scenarios ever occur during flight -- could be a good way to expose pilots to rarely used recovery procedures within realistic day to day contexts ...
  - duxup 6y ago
    I think the tough part is trying to account for the human unpredictability in human errors. You can have all the warnings and etc, but how the human processes and interprets and responds is just not always predictable. If they misread a situation, the time to recover/ self correct isn't often very long. Granted, they've obviously made great progress to some extent, as safety as far as airliners go is pretty incredible these days.

mshockwave 6y ago

are private jets under different regulations (rules)?

bdavis__ 6y ago
Yes. Both for pilots and the airplane.
t0mas88 6y ago
It depends on the weight, seat count and type of operation. Very generally speaking small jets with 9 seats or less and not being too heavy are CS-23 certified while larger (transport category) aircraft are CS-25. So the small jet in my example indeed has less regulations than a larger airliner. And would probably not be allowed to be used for commercial air transport, only charter flights.
rbanffy 6y ago
There is also less concern about training costs.

walrus01 6y ago

Cockpit user interface tour of one of the smallest private jets, the Phenom 300: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIAO0mnQU7g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIAO0mnQU7g I recently watched a few videos of flights in the Cirrus Visionjet, literally the smallest and lowest cost single engine private jet aircraft on the market. Its electronic cockpit looks very straightforward and logical in design.

TylerE 6y ago
Jets are actually in many ways simpler than a piston engine.
- 29083011397778 6y ago
  Mechanically simpler or not, I finished a Garmin install last week on a piston-engine Lancair. I would absolutely call the avionics and engine indicating systems intuitive and easy to use, even without being a pilot. While it's no G1000 or G3000, the G500 TXi, GTN 750 Xi, and GI 275 are all very straightforward, with engine indications being displayed on the G500 Xi in an easy to navigate package.
briandear 6y ago
The Vision Jet uses the Garmin G3000 which is an upgraded version of the G1000 which is quickly becoming the standard avionics for general aviation (new) airplanes. Incidentally the Phenom 300 uses the G3000 as well. If you can fly a G1000 in a Cirrus piston or Cessna, the G3000 is an easy transition. The avionics and FMS of a typical airliner is positively COBOL by comparison. To get type rated in modern GA jets is pretty easy because the avionics are generally what you are already used to. However, the G1000/G3000 aren’t part 25 certified, however there is now a G5000 that is Part 25 legal, so I expect there to be some considerable improvements trickling up into the bigger jets. (Part 25 is basically “transport category” aircraft.)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
benhurmarcel 6y ago
Systems in small aircraft are a lot simpler than in airliners, by nature.

taneq 6y ago

This seems to be an almost universal problem at old, large engineering companies. Somewhere along the way (probably as they slowly ossify into bureaucracies) all passion for innovation slowly withers. I don't know what the answer is but attitudes generally flow down from the top, so I'd imagine a good start would be to somehow re-install creative technical people in the top-end leadership roles.

ethbr0 6y ago
It's a consequence of development times. Large, complex projects take a lot of calendar time. It's generally more important to keep things from going awry than excelling. Consequently, you look around and see nothing but conservative people putting in their time. If you're someone more driven, you get tired and leave.
Zak 6y ago
You're not wrong, but there's also an element of justifiable conservatism. Aviation killed a lot of people before the associated industry and community mostly figured out how to make sure they didn't. Trying something innovative sometimes introduces a safety issue that hadn't even been considered.
AmericanChopper 6y ago
Bureaucratic inefficiency isn't the problem in this case. The people who make these systems aren't optimizing for UX, they're optimizing for safety and reliability. It's the same reason banks are still running things like their 30yo COBOL code. The cost of replacing it isn't the problem. The problem is, if it's been running reliably for 30 years, then what justification could you possibly come up with for accepting the risk of replacing it?
benhurmarcel 6y ago
I work in that industry, and I think it's very harsh to say that people have lost passion for innovation. Most engineers I've been around care about making a good product, and get excited about using better technology or finding a better design. However there's a constant care about making things that are certifiable, and make business sense (otherwise it's just not going to happen). It seems to me that it's difficult for people outside this type of industry to appreciate how certification impacts the decisions. We strive to make systems that are reliable, easy to use and maintain, and efficient; but they have to make their way to the customer, through the authorities and business constraints.

duxup 6y ago

At least as far what I've gathered reading airliner crash reports go (these obviously are going to be skewed) one of the challenges seems to be just being up to date / adjusting from one airliner to the next as far as procedure, and recovery processes for a given aircraft. Being behind the aircraft as far as interpreting the situation/ indicators and not knowing what recovery steps to take seem to be a reoccurring problem, at least as far as catastrophic type situations.

breatheoften 6y ago
As the scenario likelihood decreases, the probability of correctly identifying the associated recovery procedure probably also tends to decrease -- particularly for cases where recovery is not super clear and for cases where the scenario itself is memory intensive to describe or baroque -- "a occurred before b instead of b before a as normally expected and sensor d has condition c..." I wonder if simulated error scenarios ever occur during flight -- could be a good way to expose pilots to rarely used recovery procedures within realistic day to day contexts ...
- duxup 6y ago
  I think the tough part is trying to account for the human unpredictability in human errors. You can have all the warnings and etc, but how the human processes and interprets and responds is just not always predictable. If they misread a situation, the time to recover/ self correct isn't often very long. Granted, they've obviously made great progress to some extent, as safety as far as airliners go is pretty incredible these days.