10 ms·

The pandemic is speeding up the mass exodus of men from college

71 points by bkohlmann 6y ago

s1artibartfast 6y ago
To summarize the article, women are now 50% more likely to enroll in college than men. For those interested in the longer term trends, here is a pew report on the subject up to 2010 [1] The post article brings up the point of financial expectations, but I wonder what other factors could might be changing for young men. Alternatively, what factors ARE changing for women, and are not changing for men, specifically minority men. https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2011/08/Gender-and-higher-ed-FNL-RPT.pdf https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2011/...
- frongpik 6y ago
  At the very least we need to see enrollment rates per social class and college type. It's very likely the article makes news out of a mundane thing that boils down to a new counting scheme.
  - pc86 6y ago
    I'm curious what makes you confident that it's a non-issue and just related to how we count things. I've heard many reports over the past 10 years or so that women are going to college at a higher rate than men. Anecdotally, my graduating class was almost 60% female over a decade ago.
    - frongpik 6y ago
      It's just general distrust to media companies that like to invent news. I don't know much about the situation with colleges in the us otherwise.
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    If 3 women are enrolling and graduating for every 2 men in the US total, it is hard to understand how this could be a counting scheme. Understanding what social classes and colleges are most impacted might help determine the root cause, but wouldn't negate the totals.
- cpp_frog 6y ago
  Ctrl+F on the words stem, math, science, engineering, major, humanities gives no results or clue about the type of major people are choosing. Considering that it refers to the gender differences when it comes to seeing the value in it (and even including race), Why did they not include the type of major people go to college for? Maybe since I'm not american it would be more natural for me to include that, but if someone puts that much emphasis on the 'input' (gender, race) why not consider the 'output' (stem, humanities)?
  - Noos 6y ago
    This link might be a good starting point. https://www.amacad.org/humanities-indicators/higher-education/gender-distribution-bachelors-degrees-humanities https://www.amacad.org/humanities-indicators/higher-educatio... Women more or less dominate almost every field, sometimes to an incredible amount. Only engineering is heavily male dominated, with slight male leads in business, philosophy, history, and religion. But they are a majority in everything else otherwise, sometimes even more than men in engineering. I'd argue that this is the problem. There has been a weird conservatism about education, with "men are from mars and must go to STEM (but we want girls too) and humanities as well as everything else is for venus." The whole "durr hurr basket weaving major" posturing has kind of dissuaded men who aren't into STEM (and there are a LOT of them, the stereotype that all men are STEM or greasemonkey types is one of the most obnoxious ones out there) to probably not go into those fields.
hertzrat 6y ago
> While enrollment in higher education overall fell 2.5 percent in the fall, or by more than 461,000 students compared to the fall of 2019, the decline among men was more than seven times as steep as the decline among women, according to an analysis of figures from the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center. 7x is a big multiple. The article offers some explanations but not enough to get me past the “wow” response. The bigger picture is just that the 60/40 split between college educations has flipped to favour women now, and was the opposite a decade ago, but the short term 7x is still crazy
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  > The bigger picture is just that the 60/40 split between college educations has flipped to favour women now, and was the opposite a decade ago, but the short term 7x is still crazy The 60/40 split was the opposite in the 1960s, not a decade ago. This was a time where women were widely regarded to disenfranchised.
  - hertzrat 6y ago
    I must have misread something, thanks for the correction
8bitsrule 6y ago
>"His male classmates “don’t think they’re smart enough” for college, Adon says. “They doubt themselves a little bit because of their life and what they’ve been through and what they’ve been seen as.” That part of it is sad. Lots of guys haven't really had a shot at finding out what they're capable until life shows them otherwise. My bro-in-law was like that. Graduated from a crappy, unchallenging high-school in the sticks. He was about 30, and a highly-skilled mechanic with several kids, when he decided to give it a shot. Spent about a half-year at a community college doing remedial math and writing, then applied at a University. Four years later he was handed a degree in chemistry, with honors. As he would say, "Not too shabby."
tester34 6y ago
Why would you want to go to college, have huge debt and learn things (CS) that's avaliable on the internet for free? even courses from an actual edu institutions like mit, stanford and so on The only thing I think is knowning people from the industry and seeing what cool stuff other people do, but otherwise? I just graduated with engineering degree that I've done on weekends while working full time as SE and I'd never want to go on normal schelude (where I attend college on work days instead of 4days/month) because it'd be straight up waste of the time, but when they'd additionally require me to pay tens of thousands of usd for this, then holy shit. The difference would be when it would be top country CS like top1, top2, top3, top(1+some), but below that? What's the point of paying mad cash for basics of CS? just for the title? just for the diploma? I don't believe that not obtaining higher edu is a good choice, but there's so many things that sounds poor about it.
- belorn 6y ago
  > What's the point of paying mad cash for basics of CS? just for the title? just for the diploma? Mostly Yes. Free education has existed for a very long time through libraries and book shops, and yet the effect to get more women into high paying jobs was significant smaller compared to the mass of men who went into college and universities. The second major effect of getting diplomas and titles is the perception of investing into that person future. A parent who invest into their child will also push that child into getting a job. Society and culture also put down expectations that a person who studied and heavily invested into a title will also end up with such job rather than settle for less.
  - antibuddy 6y ago
    I agree that actual educational institutions make a difference and that also explains some/much of the unbalance few decades ago. However women are also different than men and that is also reflected in the commitment and interests. So we still see the "gender pay gap", which does not show unfairness in the system, but that women are still fewer in higher paying jobs without the restrictions to higher education of yesteryear.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
thoughtstheseus 6y ago
This is not a surprising outcome. Most institutions are trying to increase the % of women, not create a parity between genders.
DC1350 6y ago
With the combination of increasing economic equality between the sexes (young women actually earn more nowadays) and women’s rising expectations from online dating attention, I think it’s clear that we’re heading rapidly towards the normalization of polygamy. There’s just no incentive for women to ever “settle” anymore. I fear that this is going to end in civil unrest when so many young men are economically insecure and have no family of their own to give them ties to the local community.
- FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
  I don't expect "one husband, multiple wives" style polygamy, but a de-facto "stud" or "babydaddy" system might come about. At the socioeconomic high end that could involve intermediation by sperm banks; it could even be a standard part of your corporate benefits package. More commodification. Women select donors on the basis of style-setting op-ed pieces. "Autists" somewhere on the Internet figure out how to get rich by shorting futures contracts for celebrity semen. It is also worth remarking that a surprising percentage of women now have never had a sexual experience, even at a surprisingly late age. You could call it a kind of accidental capitalist monasticism, with "startup accelerator" as nunnery (all wrapped in the language of empowerment of course, same as in Xinjiang). With effective branding, commercial sperm could give them the option, as they start to get older, to produce children without having to (belatedly learn how to) form relationships. This would then also create a market for child care apps, and for nannies to work in the colorful facilities.
  - tsdlts 6y ago
    Just curious but do you have a source for the claim that a surprising number of women are not having sex at a late age? The sad part of this comment is that it seems almost inevitable given how much our society has driven the commodification of human relationships. Most of my friends always "hedged" their relationships, that is, having multiple partners waiting in the wings in case their old relationship falls off, or in case something "better" comes along. In this case better is a purely emotionally detached lists of pros and cons, an exchange of what can be gained. I can see women in their early 30s downloading an app and then clicking through a form of what their ideal sperm phenotypes will be. Blue eyes, over 6 feet, college educated etc. Then it gives you a catalogue of men with professional headshots and brief product descriptions listing all their greatest traits for you to select from.
cambalache 6y ago
I think there is a big open space for a new kind of institution for higher learning: Shorter, more focused careers, no SJW bullshit, no expensive administrators overhead, partially or completely online, open to a worldwide population. I am aware things like CC and technical schools exists but there is a probably undeserved stigma that they are 'inferior', we need this as a solid,widely respected alternative.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  There are bootcamps for that. > widely respected alternative If someone ever creates one, it will take off. Meanwhile pretty much all what's on the market right now is snake oil
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  > no expensive administrators overhead Just this alone would be huge. Places of higher education should be places where active learning and the exploration of thought is encouraged. Nowadays the education environment is very much conformist - there's one right way to think.
unanswered 6y ago
Isn't this a good thing, since it's correcting for an historical inequity?

71 points by bkohlmann 6y ago

To summarize the article, women are now 50% more likely to enroll in college than men. For those interested in the longer term trends, here is a pew report on the subject up to 2010 [1] The post article brings up the point of financial expectations, but I wonder what other factors could might be changing for young men. Alternatively, what factors ARE changing for women, and are not changing for men, specifically minority men. https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2011/08/Gender-and-higher-ed-FNL-RPT.pdf https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2011/...

frongpik 6y ago
At the very least we need to see enrollment rates per social class and college type. It's very likely the article makes news out of a mundane thing that boils down to a new counting scheme.
- pc86 6y ago
  I'm curious what makes you confident that it's a non-issue and just related to how we count things. I've heard many reports over the past 10 years or so that women are going to college at a higher rate than men. Anecdotally, my graduating class was almost 60% female over a decade ago.
  - frongpik 6y ago
    It's just general distrust to media companies that like to invent news. I don't know much about the situation with colleges in the us otherwise.
- s1artibartfast 6y ago
  If 3 women are enrolling and graduating for every 2 men in the US total, it is hard to understand how this could be a counting scheme. Understanding what social classes and colleges are most impacted might help determine the root cause, but wouldn't negate the totals.
cpp_frog 6y ago
Ctrl+F on the words stem, math, science, engineering, major, humanities gives no results or clue about the type of major people are choosing. Considering that it refers to the gender differences when it comes to seeing the value in it (and even including race), Why did they not include the type of major people go to college for? Maybe since I'm not american it would be more natural for me to include that, but if someone puts that much emphasis on the 'input' (gender, race) why not consider the 'output' (stem, humanities)?
- Noos 6y ago
  This link might be a good starting point. https://www.amacad.org/humanities-indicators/higher-education/gender-distribution-bachelors-degrees-humanities https://www.amacad.org/humanities-indicators/higher-educatio... Women more or less dominate almost every field, sometimes to an incredible amount. Only engineering is heavily male dominated, with slight male leads in business, philosophy, history, and religion. But they are a majority in everything else otherwise, sometimes even more than men in engineering. I'd argue that this is the problem. There has been a weird conservatism about education, with "men are from mars and must go to STEM (but we want girls too) and humanities as well as everything else is for venus." The whole "durr hurr basket weaving major" posturing has kind of dissuaded men who aren't into STEM (and there are a LOT of them, the stereotype that all men are STEM or greasemonkey types is one of the most obnoxious ones out there) to probably not go into those fields.

hertzrat 6y ago

> While enrollment in higher education overall fell 2.5 percent in the fall, or by more than 461,000 students compared to the fall of 2019, the decline among men was more than seven times as steep as the decline among women, according to an analysis of figures from the National Student Clearinghouse Research Center. 7x is a big multiple. The article offers some explanations but not enough to get me past the “wow” response. The bigger picture is just that the 60/40 split between college educations has flipped to favour women now, and was the opposite a decade ago, but the short term 7x is still crazy

s1artibartfast 6y ago
> The bigger picture is just that the 60/40 split between college educations has flipped to favour women now, and was the opposite a decade ago, but the short term 7x is still crazy The 60/40 split was the opposite in the 1960s, not a decade ago. This was a time where women were widely regarded to disenfranchised.
- hertzrat 6y ago
  I must have misread something, thanks for the correction

8bitsrule 6y ago

>"His male classmates “don’t think they’re smart enough” for college, Adon says. “They doubt themselves a little bit because of their life and what they’ve been through and what they’ve been seen as.” That part of it is sad. Lots of guys haven't really had a shot at finding out what they're capable until life shows them otherwise. My bro-in-law was like that. Graduated from a crappy, unchallenging high-school in the sticks. He was about 30, and a highly-skilled mechanic with several kids, when he decided to give it a shot. Spent about a half-year at a community college doing remedial math and writing, then applied at a University. Four years later he was handed a degree in chemistry, with honors. As he would say, "Not too shabby."

tester34 6y ago

Why would you want to go to college, have huge debt and learn things (CS) that's avaliable on the internet for free? even courses from an actual edu institutions like mit, stanford and so on The only thing I think is knowning people from the industry and seeing what cool stuff other people do, but otherwise? I just graduated with engineering degree that I've done on weekends while working full time as SE and I'd never want to go on normal schelude (where I attend college on work days instead of 4days/month) because it'd be straight up waste of the time, but when they'd additionally require me to pay tens of thousands of usd for this, then holy shit. The difference would be when it would be top country CS like top1, top2, top3, top(1+some), but below that? What's the point of paying mad cash for basics of CS? just for the title? just for the diploma? I don't believe that not obtaining higher edu is a good choice, but there's so many things that sounds poor about it.

belorn 6y ago
> What's the point of paying mad cash for basics of CS? just for the title? just for the diploma? Mostly Yes. Free education has existed for a very long time through libraries and book shops, and yet the effect to get more women into high paying jobs was significant smaller compared to the mass of men who went into college and universities. The second major effect of getting diplomas and titles is the perception of investing into that person future. A parent who invest into their child will also push that child into getting a job. Society and culture also put down expectations that a person who studied and heavily invested into a title will also end up with such job rather than settle for less.
- antibuddy 6y ago
  I agree that actual educational institutions make a difference and that also explains some/much of the unbalance few decades ago. However women are also different than men and that is also reflected in the commitment and interests. So we still see the "gender pay gap", which does not show unfairness in the system, but that women are still fewer in higher paying jobs without the restrictions to higher education of yesteryear.
LatteLazy 6y ago

thoughtstheseus 6y ago

This is not a surprising outcome. Most institutions are trying to increase the % of women, not create a parity between genders.

DC1350 6y ago

With the combination of increasing economic equality between the sexes (young women actually earn more nowadays) and women’s rising expectations from online dating attention, I think it’s clear that we’re heading rapidly towards the normalization of polygamy. There’s just no incentive for women to ever “settle” anymore. I fear that this is going to end in civil unrest when so many young men are economically insecure and have no family of their own to give them ties to the local community.

FooBarBizBazz 6y ago
I don't expect "one husband, multiple wives" style polygamy, but a de-facto "stud" or "babydaddy" system might come about. At the socioeconomic high end that could involve intermediation by sperm banks; it could even be a standard part of your corporate benefits package. More commodification. Women select donors on the basis of style-setting op-ed pieces. "Autists" somewhere on the Internet figure out how to get rich by shorting futures contracts for celebrity semen. It is also worth remarking that a surprising percentage of women now have never had a sexual experience, even at a surprisingly late age. You could call it a kind of accidental capitalist monasticism, with "startup accelerator" as nunnery (all wrapped in the language of empowerment of course, same as in Xinjiang). With effective branding, commercial sperm could give them the option, as they start to get older, to produce children without having to (belatedly learn how to) form relationships. This would then also create a market for child care apps, and for nannies to work in the colorful facilities.
- tsdlts 6y ago
  Just curious but do you have a source for the claim that a surprising number of women are not having sex at a late age? The sad part of this comment is that it seems almost inevitable given how much our society has driven the commodification of human relationships. Most of my friends always "hedged" their relationships, that is, having multiple partners waiting in the wings in case their old relationship falls off, or in case something "better" comes along. In this case better is a purely emotionally detached lists of pros and cons, an exchange of what can be gained. I can see women in their early 30s downloading an app and then clicking through a form of what their ideal sperm phenotypes will be. Blue eyes, over 6 feet, college educated etc. Then it gives you a catalogue of men with professional headshots and brief product descriptions listing all their greatest traits for you to select from.

cambalache 6y ago

I think there is a big open space for a new kind of institution for higher learning: Shorter, more focused careers, no SJW bullshit, no expensive administrators overhead, partially or completely online, open to a worldwide population. I am aware things like CC and technical schools exists but there is a probably undeserved stigma that they are 'inferior', we need this as a solid,widely respected alternative.

908B64B197 6y ago
There are bootcamps for that. > widely respected alternative If someone ever creates one, it will take off. Meanwhile pretty much all what's on the market right now is snake oil
gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
> no expensive administrators overhead Just this alone would be huge. Places of higher education should be places where active learning and the exploration of thought is encouraged. Nowadays the education environment is very much conformist - there's one right way to think.

unanswered 6y ago

Isn't this a good thing, since it's correcting for an historical inequity?