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Whats up with sprinkling of "xyz is an upstanding citizen and father to n beautiful children." ? They are clearly not an upstanding citizen - otherwise they wou
by noisy_boy 6y ago
Whats up with sprinkling of "xyz is an upstanding citizen and father to n beautiful children." ? They are clearly not an upstanding citizen - otherwise they wouldn't require a presidential pardon. Being father to children is not an achievement and any two consenting healthy adult man and woman can produce them irrespective of their standing in society. And beauty of children is a criteria for pardon now? What if the children were ugly - "clearly he doesn't deserve a pardon, look at his children!" ?! What utter bullshit.
- devmunchies 6y ago>They are clearly not an upstanding citizen - otherwise they wouldn't require a presidential pardon so snowden isn't an upstanding citizen either? law abiding citizen != upstanding citizen
- noisy_boy 6y agoGood point - I stand corrected on that front.
- sn_master 6y ago>They are clearly not an upstanding citizen Your sole argument here is that they were convicted by a court for violating the law. Are you saying everyone convicted by the criminal justice system is a bad human being? Because the pardon is by definition an admission of guilt, it doesn't exonerate them from what they did.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- qwerty456127 6y agoThis! Always baffled me. This probably is something from the colonial age when the population was tiny, conditions were harsh, labor hard, medicine nonexistent so producing a fellow colonist was considered an extremely valuable act, also requiring genuine dedication and courage.
- pbhjpbhj 6y agoThe beauty thing is interesting, beauty is our way of assessing quickly if someone is a good mate (biologically). Good mates strengthen the species, by definition [assuming the system works, maybe it doesn't]. So, beauty of the children is an appeal to tribal instinct that it would be useful to society for this family to prosper. I'm absolutely not saying I agree with this manner of assessing people; but it's interesting to imagine how it fits into development of the species and how that 'works' with society.
- rmk 6y agoIt's a way of saying that person who is pardoned is a good parent (and therefore not irredeemably bad) and the (blameless) children will benefit from the pardon.
- eli 6y agoWell it's not like they can argue he was innocent.
- totoglazer 6y agoDoesn’t even require consent :(
- dcolkitt 6y agoI would argue that creating a new human being is an act of charity. Most people are very happy to exist, and probably grateful that their parents chose to create them. Especially given the fact that parenting requires a huge investment of time and resources. That doesn't mean that parents can't be bad people, or that parenthood is the only criteria of goodness. But knowing that somebody chose to become a parent strongly updates my priors about their character.
- beaugunderson 6y agoFor a compelling opposing view see "Better Never to Have Been": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Never_to_Have_Been https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Never_to_Have_Been
- dcolkitt 6y agoI've read it. Benatar does a lot of mental gymnastics to arrive at his conclusion. But the simple argument, that he never overcomes, is how many people if given access to a time machine would use it to prevent their own birth? How many would use it to prevent the creation of life on Earth? Even after reading Benatar's carefully crafted tome, I doubt that very many readers would be convinced to change their answers to these questions.
- gfxgirl 6y agoplenty of people don't choose or choose under a kind of duress (religious guilt)
- floatrock 6y agoIt sets the narrative on relatable humanizing neighborly fluff in order to dodge the messy grey reality of the world.