3 ms·

> Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat Neither myself, nor Cyrus Janssen, are currently living in China. This is my genuine opinion, believe it or n

> Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat Neither myself, nor Cyrus Janssen, are currently living in China. This is my genuine opinion, believe it or not. Nobody forces me, nobody pays me. I thought people are supposed to be "against the CCP but support the Chinese people". Is your support limited to Chinese people who are against the CCP? Why do you not reflect for a while on why someone like me, who has grown up with western culture and has independently investigated China, is not as anti-China as you are? Why is it hard to accept that maybe some of of core assumptions you have about China is wrong? And no, you don't go to jail for not toeing the party line. That's not how it works. They censor you if your views are stirring up social unrest or calling for overthrow. But they don't force you to say things they want. At least, that's the case for average citizen. I suppose if you're a high-level business executive with many ties to the government, then things become more complex. But that's not very different from the west, is it? If you piss off a government customer, you won't be jailed, but do you think they'd be happy to continue doing business with you?

sebmellen 6y ago
Just a note — there is basically zero chance that Jeff Bezos would face any sort of governmental action if he "pissed off a guy in a government department," however influential that person may be. AWS just blocked Parler, and I'm sure our current president — arguably the most powerful man on Earth (until tomorrow) — was not very happy with that. We don't see Jeff Bezos in hiding for doing that, nor would he have to go into hiding for anything far less. I don't say this to accuse you (@dang trying not to flamewar) — do you not see that this argument is a little disingenuous? If you don't, I'd love to hear your thinking on why.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  Well, I'd just have to respectfully disagree then. As someone who runs my own company, I know better than to pick a quarrel with my customers, even if I don't agree with those customers on a political or whatever level. It's not at all strange to have multiple factions in an organizations who are after multiple vendors, as tool for an internal power war. Maybe if I piss off the guy who chose me as vendor, then his rivals will use that fact against him. My point is, social relations are complex. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence.
  - jolux 6y ago
    >My point is, social relations are complex. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence. In general it does mean freedom from legal consequences and government interference, with few exceptions.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      Is that really good enough? Why is freedom from government interference all you care about?
      - jolux 6y ago
        It's not all that I care about, but the government has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. I have recourse to that force if another private entity harms me. Who do I have recourse to if the government harms me? I consider freedom of speech a baseline, and I think it's one of the only things the US Constitution got right.
seanmcdirmid 6y ago
> And no, you don't go to jail for not toeing the party line. That's not how it works. No you don’t. But you might find your work visa renewal denied. Things can get inconvenient really quickly, as a foreigner you don’t want to be a grass mud horse while in China, river crab is the only way to go. > If you're Jeff Bezos and you piss off the guy in a government department... Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which is exactly what happened.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  > No you don’t. But you might find your work visa renewal denied. Daniel Dumbrill, a vlogger in China, literally criticized the Guangzhou government for its negligent behavior against African workers. I did the same. We did this more than a year ago and we're both still fine. > Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which is exactly what happened. You missed the point. You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you.
  - perryizgr8 6y ago
    > You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you. You can do that actually. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/22/amazon-files-suit-protesting-microsofts-jedi-cloud-contract.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/22/amazon-files-suit-protesting... https://www.onmsft.com/news/corrected-evaluation-flaw-may-favor-aws-over-microsofts-azure-in-jedi-contract https://www.onmsft.com/news/corrected-evaluation-flaw-may-fa...
  - seanmcdirmid 6y ago
    Just because it doesn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, or that it could happen. If you have a 60k/month job, you can’t really take the risk that your visa won’t be renewed. > You missed the point. You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you. No, of course you can, and that is what Amazon is doing.

sebmellen 6y ago

Just a note — there is basically zero chance that Jeff Bezos would face any sort of governmental action if he "pissed off a guy in a government department," however influential that person may be. AWS just blocked Parler, and I'm sure our current president — arguably the most powerful man on Earth (until tomorrow) — was not very happy with that. We don't see Jeff Bezos in hiding for doing that, nor would he have to go into hiding for anything far less. I don't say this to accuse you (@dang trying not to flamewar) — do you not see that this argument is a little disingenuous? If you don't, I'd love to hear your thinking on why.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
Well, I'd just have to respectfully disagree then. As someone who runs my own company, I know better than to pick a quarrel with my customers, even if I don't agree with those customers on a political or whatever level. It's not at all strange to have multiple factions in an organizations who are after multiple vendors, as tool for an internal power war. Maybe if I piss off the guy who chose me as vendor, then his rivals will use that fact against him. My point is, social relations are complex. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence.
- jolux 6y ago
  >My point is, social relations are complex. Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence. In general it does mean freedom from legal consequences and government interference, with few exceptions.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Is that really good enough? Why is freedom from government interference all you care about?
    - jolux 6y ago
      It's not all that I care about, but the government has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. I have recourse to that force if another private entity harms me. Who do I have recourse to if the government harms me? I consider freedom of speech a baseline, and I think it's one of the only things the US Constitution got right.

seanmcdirmid 6y ago

> And no, you don't go to jail for not toeing the party line. That's not how it works. No you don’t. But you might find your work visa renewal denied. Things can get inconvenient really quickly, as a foreigner you don’t want to be a grass mud horse while in China, river crab is the only way to go. > If you're Jeff Bezos and you piss off the guy in a government department... Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which is exactly what happened.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
> No you don’t. But you might find your work visa renewal denied. Daniel Dumbrill, a vlogger in China, literally criticized the Guangzhou government for its negligent behavior against African workers. I did the same. We did this more than a year ago and we're both still fine. > Then Jeff Bezos sues the government, which is exactly what happened. You missed the point. You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you.
- perryizgr8 6y ago
  > You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you. You can do that actually. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/22/amazon-files-suit-protesting-microsofts-jedi-cloud-contract.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/22/amazon-files-suit-protesting... https://www.onmsft.com/news/corrected-evaluation-flaw-may-favor-aws-over-microsofts-azure-in-jedi-contract https://www.onmsft.com/news/corrected-evaluation-flaw-may-fa...
- seanmcdirmid 6y ago
  Just because it doesn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, or that it could happen. If you have a 60k/month job, you can’t really take the risk that your visa won’t be renewed. > You missed the point. You can't sue the government into continuing to do business with you. No, of course you can, and that is what Amazon is doing.