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Of course it's ridiculous if you only know China through the media. But have you considered that maybe the media representation is inaccurate? I've actually liv

Of course it's ridiculous if you only know China through the media. But have you considered that maybe the media representation is inaccurate? I've actually lived there, my wife comes from there, and my family is still there. This is combined with new information about China coming from the west, and having no restrictions here. I've studied some of China's recent history, a subject which is rarely taught in the west. Why do you think you know the truth better than I do? > Also, why live in the Netherlands if China is so great? Wouldn't it make sense to move back there, if everything is on the up & up? Because China wasn't great. I came here in 1993 with my parents, back then China was dirt-poor. My wife came here much more recently, in 2012, and she's of the opinion that the Netherlands is very boring and has no good food compared to China. She'd fly back multiple times a year if she could. For a more realistic perspective on Chinese society and its changes in the past 20 years, you should read this: The American Dream Is Alive in China https://palladiummag.com/2019/10/11/the-american-dream-is-alive-in-china/ https://palladiummag.com/2019/10/11/the-american-dream-is-al... > is kind of ridiculous. This is a whole different topic. There's a lot to deconstruct and to respond to in just those few sentences you typed, and those few links you sent. I would be glad to engage with you on this subject, but I have to know something first: do you truly wish for a conversation, or do you just want to stick with your existing opinion? China has problems, but it isn't the boogeyman the media makes it out to be. When the west better understands China, and when the west and China come together, the whole world wins.

seanmcdirmid 6y ago
I found the greatest offenders of media that portrays China in a poor light are CCTV, xinhua, people’s daily, etc... if you consume those media, you get the impression that China is a backwards authoritarian state with lots of flaws, but of course the truth is more nuanced. I first visited China in 1999, did a 6 month Chinese course at PKU in 2002, and lived/worked in Beijing from 2007-2016. Frankly, the political situation simply got worse from 2008 on, whereas before it really looked like China was opening up and would continue to do so.
- EastToWest 6y ago
  > I found the greatest offenders of media that portrays China in a poor light are CCTV, xinhua, people’s daily, etc... if you consume those media, you get the impression that China is a backwards authoritarian state with lots of flaws, but of course the truth is more nuanced. You're not their target audience, period. Also you're molded by Western culture, of course you interpret things differently with your own bias (in a neutral sense). On the flip side, a lot of Chinese find Western media chaotic, unruly and full of lies, which portray Western society in a poor light. And of course, the truth is more nuanced like you said.
waihtis 6y ago
I think people on both sides of the border need to acknowledge the limited value of news; not only will it give you a severely distorted lens of reality, but more importantly it is borderline ignoramus behaviour to base your reality of something on news as a source.
sebmellen 6y ago
I find your comments interesting because I've lived in Amsterdam for a significant period of time (as well as Switzerland, Germany, and Denmark), and I've intersected with a lot of people who probably have very similar life stories to you! I think the crowd I interact with is probably somewhat different though, because they're mostly crypto/blockchain people. While I have encountered a fair number of expats who moved to China and regularly visit NL/DE/CH, and rave about how good things are in China, I've also heard the opposite from Chinese friends who moved away. The issue is very complex, and I don't disagree that China is full of promise. I really would like China to succeed, and I think that co-operation is necessary to fix a lot of the problems that threaten us on a planetary and social scale (climate change, immigration, economics, etc.). However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and really would like to see them dismantled. For this reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because I've been very publicly vocal in this position. I'd be interested to hear more from you — I think civil discourse is very important. But I also don't have much tolerance for gaslighting, and sadly many pro-China/CCP actors have gotten very good at that.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  The thing is, I don't even consider myself particularly pro-CCP. But CCP is the only party that actually advances the interests of Chinese civilization. All the other parties only care about destroying CCP, no matter the negative consequences to Chinese society. Also, half of the reasons people use to oppose the CCP, are either false, or based on twisted half-truths. When I see such unwarranted attacks, how can I not help but feel defensive? It's my and my relatives' future that's at stake. I don't need everyone to become CCP fans. I'd already be happy if people can see CCP in a more realistic, nuanced manner, rather than a cartoon villain. > However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and really would like to see them dismantled. For this reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because I've been very publicly vocal in this position. This reminds me of myself more than 10 years ago. Back then I had been indoctrinated by western media and western views of China for 15 years. China is bad, China is communism, China kills people, Mao killed millions, one child policy bad, etc. When at the airport and police stations I saw government workers with those typical hats on, an alarm bell goes off in my head: OMG communism!!!! But years later, I got married to my Chinese wife. I started having more interactions with Chinese people. I started researching Chinese recent history. I started researching Chinese society. I started talking to westerners actually living in China. And I found out that a lot of the stuff people here say about the CCP are twisted half-truths, either deliberately or based on misunderstandings due to different culture and values. The Chinese police, rather than brutal enforces, and actually very friendly, don't carry guns, and it's very common for people to quarrel with the police without suffering consequences. Try that in some western countries.

seanmcdirmid 6y ago

I found the greatest offenders of media that portrays China in a poor light are CCTV, xinhua, people’s daily, etc... if you consume those media, you get the impression that China is a backwards authoritarian state with lots of flaws, but of course the truth is more nuanced. I first visited China in 1999, did a 6 month Chinese course at PKU in 2002, and lived/worked in Beijing from 2007-2016. Frankly, the political situation simply got worse from 2008 on, whereas before it really looked like China was opening up and would continue to do so.

EastToWest 6y ago
> I found the greatest offenders of media that portrays China in a poor light are CCTV, xinhua, people’s daily, etc... if you consume those media, you get the impression that China is a backwards authoritarian state with lots of flaws, but of course the truth is more nuanced. You're not their target audience, period. Also you're molded by Western culture, of course you interpret things differently with your own bias (in a neutral sense). On the flip side, a lot of Chinese find Western media chaotic, unruly and full of lies, which portray Western society in a poor light. And of course, the truth is more nuanced like you said.

waihtis 6y ago

I think people on both sides of the border need to acknowledge the limited value of news; not only will it give you a severely distorted lens of reality, but more importantly it is borderline ignoramus behaviour to base your reality of something on news as a source.

sebmellen 6y ago

I find your comments interesting because I've lived in Amsterdam for a significant period of time (as well as Switzerland, Germany, and Denmark), and I've intersected with a lot of people who probably have very similar life stories to you! I think the crowd I interact with is probably somewhat different though, because they're mostly crypto/blockchain people. While I have encountered a fair number of expats who moved to China and regularly visit NL/DE/CH, and rave about how good things are in China, I've also heard the opposite from Chinese friends who moved away. The issue is very complex, and I don't disagree that China is full of promise. I really would like China to succeed, and I think that co-operation is necessary to fix a lot of the problems that threaten us on a planetary and social scale (climate change, immigration, economics, etc.). However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and really would like to see them dismantled. For this reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because I've been very publicly vocal in this position. I'd be interested to hear more from you — I think civil discourse is very important. But I also don't have much tolerance for gaslighting, and sadly many pro-China/CCP actors have gotten very good at that.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
The thing is, I don't even consider myself particularly pro-CCP. But CCP is the only party that actually advances the interests of Chinese civilization. All the other parties only care about destroying CCP, no matter the negative consequences to Chinese society. Also, half of the reasons people use to oppose the CCP, are either false, or based on twisted half-truths. When I see such unwarranted attacks, how can I not help but feel defensive? It's my and my relatives' future that's at stake. I don't need everyone to become CCP fans. I'd already be happy if people can see CCP in a more realistic, nuanced manner, rather than a cartoon villain. > However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and really would like to see them dismantled. For this reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because I've been very publicly vocal in this position. This reminds me of myself more than 10 years ago. Back then I had been indoctrinated by western media and western views of China for 15 years. China is bad, China is communism, China kills people, Mao killed millions, one child policy bad, etc. When at the airport and police stations I saw government workers with those typical hats on, an alarm bell goes off in my head: OMG communism!!!! But years later, I got married to my Chinese wife. I started having more interactions with Chinese people. I started researching Chinese recent history. I started researching Chinese society. I started talking to westerners actually living in China. And I found out that a lot of the stuff people here say about the CCP are twisted half-truths, either deliberately or based on misunderstandings due to different culture and values. The Chinese police, rather than brutal enforces, and actually very friendly, don't carry guns, and it's very common for people to quarrel with the police without suffering consequences. Try that in some western countries.