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How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but Ch

How much more mental gymnastics do we need? I think it's time to accept that he WASN'T jailed rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. The HN commentary went from 'Jack Ma is a national security threat' to 'Jack Ma is a poor victim of the CCP will will never be seen again' to 'this is fake, he is still jailed'. If he shows up someone else in person next time, will people say that the CCP staged that too? It's getting too ridiculous. Cyrus Janssen, an expat who has worked in China for 12 years, blogged about this. I think he has a much more accurate view of what happened. Jack Ma was laying low, not jailed. And the rrason why his comments pissed off people is because the phase of development China is now in, rather than a generic "thou shall not criticize the party" https://cyrusjanssen.substack.com/p/trump-free-speech-and-where-is-jack https://cyrusjanssen.substack.com/p/trump-free-speech-and-wh... In contrast to China's reputation here in the west, the govt actually DOES listen to criticism. Yes they censor at the same time. Calling for violence and overthrow of the govt is not allowed. But at the same time they do listen, and for the past 20 years they've continuously reformed policy based on citizen's criticism on social media, or those submitted via official channels. The key is to be constructive, and to criticize policy rather than people. This also applies to this latest incident. Yes it bugged a lot of people in the government, but at the same time they're really looking into the actual criticism made and whether there's a need for reform. I am from China and I have family in China.

duxup 6y ago
He could be running a wonky business financially, and a victim of something else.
echelon 6y ago
> How much more mental gymnastics do we need? > I am from China and I have family in China. Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? Please realize also that many in the West (myself included) are freaking out about China and are trying to counter its rise. This is a narrative that fits into their world view. I'm more worried about CCP fascism and hypersonic nukes than I am about climate change. I'm worried about what happens when Chinese software developers outnumber us, and all of our tech has been cheaply duplicated and sold around the world. When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode? I'm worried about our companies and politicians adopting capitalism and democracy with Chinese characteristics. --- Edit: downvotes trigger HN's post filter, so I'm including my replies below --- > That doesn't seem to fit the narrative that people have the agency to think differently from the status quo Americans would like to impose upon the world. Last time I was in China, a good third of the people I spoke in depth with openly discussed the corruption and expressed dissenting views. This was in private, of course. There were more than a few die-hard pro-CCP folks, but the talk of corruption was far more pervasive. You're still probably right. > Is this Great Replacement propaganda? It does sound a little like it. That's not at all my intention. I think it's appropriate to worry about a country copying tech that has a much larger, more productive population to sustain growth. Their protectionism doesn't help. But really this is all rooted in the single-party fascism. I'd be fine if China were a democracy. I might even move there myself. I don't care about my genes or my race or my progeny. I want the world to grow freer with every passing year. The CCP represents a major stumbling block in my worldview and sense of security. > You sit down and try to succeed on merit rather than privilege for once in your life Okay, that's a good point. But I'm working my ass off as it is, so I don't know how much latitude for adjustment I have here.
- approxim8ion 6y ago
  >Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? What if they don't want to? There is a trend in the west that pretends like dissent would overflow in China if it wasn't suppressed, but what if people genuinely actually like the government? That doesn't seem to fit the narrative that people have the agency to think differently from the status quo Americans would like to impose upon the world. >I'm worried about what happens when Chinese software developers outnumber us Is this Great Replacement propaganda? >When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode? You sit down and try to succeed on merit rather than privilege for once in your life, not unlike the 200-odd countries that aren't superpowers.
  - nyokodo 6y ago
    > but what if people genuinely actually like the government? If that were the case then there would be no need for the censorship.
    - approxim8ion 6y ago
      I didn't mean all the people all the time. But this harranguing of any random individual asking them why they aren't criticizing the CCP with every living breath seems to count on the idea that they are afraid to speak up and/or brainwashed with evil oriental commie magic.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  There are a couple of paradigm shifts needed. In mainland China, people value outcome legitimacy rather than procedural legitimacy and freedom of speech. In other words: they care whether the government actually does a good job, rather than whether the procedure through which the government was selected is correct, or whether they could criticize Xi. How would the government get feedback then if people aren't allowed to criticize? As I said before: one can submit feedback about policy. Just don't go around and insult people. The government monitors social media as well for grievances. At the same time they censor social media to prevent mass unrest, but they take grievances seriously and works to solve them. Whereas the west has freedom of speech as a core value, mainland Chinese value unity, face, action over talk and freedom from poverty. To them, it's much more important to be able to have a good economic life, than freedom of speech. After all, 2 generations ago the Chinese were dirt-poor. When I was born, food rationing still existed! As Kishore Mahbubani, ex-UN Security Council head and ex-Singapore diplomat, said: the CCP is in actuality more like a Chinese Civilization Party. Their goal is to advance the interests of Chinese civilization, not to spread communism world-wide. China is not facist. Facism means that society is deliberately split up in classes (e.g. races), with one class being seen as inherently superior to other "untermenschen". This is not China. There's no notion that Han is better than Yao, or whatever. Official government policy is to give ethnic minorities preferential treatment, such as easier access to university. Or maybe you're using "facism" as a generic word for something you don't like? This is an actual question, not a diss. As for hypersonic weapons: yes escalating weaponry is not good. But on the other hand, the US is not blameless in this: "The US Has No Place in the South China Sea Dispute" https://original.antiwar.com/dave_decamp/2020/07/19/the-us-has-no-place-in-the-south-china-sea-dispute/ https://original.antiwar.com/dave_decamp/2020/07/19/the-us-h... The US isn't supposed to be sailing warships around in the South China Sea in the first place. How about we all calm down and de-escalate at the same time, rather than trying to demonize a single party? > When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode? What made America and the west great? It's because of the great many talented individuals, focus on science and technology, investment in education, research and development. Keep doing that. We've been dropping that ball lately, becoming complacent. The west can easily compete with China toe-to-toe if only we get our shit together. China is not interested in exporting its governance model. It has never done that. There's no evidence it ever will do that. Why should they? It's not in their interest to change others' governance model. China's rise as a superpower is easily the most peaceful one in human history. China is not an enemy, not a threat. When China and the west come together, the whole world wins.
lxe 6y ago
A Chinese person's perspective about China and its politics/government on HN/Reddit? Enjoy the following classics: 1) you're brainwashed. 2) how do you justify the human rights violations? 3) you're a CCP shill 4) Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? Good luck!
- secretcombos 6y ago
  He could very well be from the 50 Cent Party. HN has no doubt been infiltrated by them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
  - cepth 6y ago
    Yes, a HN member with a profile created in December of 2008, 5800+ Karma, with links to his Twitter and name of his employer in his profile page is a 五毛(50 center). The CCP is truly all powerful! If my dripping sarcasm wasn’t clear, you’re way off base here. Edit 1: to the downvoters, please feel free to explain why it’s appropriate to accuse a 12-year HN member of being a paid shill for the CCP when all evidence points to the contrary.
    - lxe 6y ago
      Keybase, twitter, normal twitter tech posts stuff... followers... why randomly throw conspiracies at people?
    - ncann 6y ago
      The one you're replying to sounds like sarcasm to me. Or a very ironic comment given the comment it's replying to. It's hard to tell.
      - cepth 6y ago
        I might’ve thought so too, but the account I’m replying to seems to be a genuine CCP critic (which is totally fine!). A post about Putin and the CCP exploiting US domestic political turmoil: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25830075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25830075 A book recommendation by a longtime China-skeptical writer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843422 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gertz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gertz) My personal preference is for a HN community where dissenting views don’t lead to assigning ulterior motives (in this case being paid to shill for the CCP) to our debating “opponents”.
zhdc1 6y ago
It's extremely unlikely that the founder and CEO of a $600B publicly traded company would completely disappear for several months on his own initiative. A short interview or a couple of emails would have dispelled all speculation that he was detained without agitating the Chinese government.
- liuliu 6y ago
  He is not the CEO. I don't think he holds any official title since late 2019.
ALittleLight 6y ago
As I understand it he's been out of the public eye since October, after making comments critical of the Chinese government, and now the government is making noise about nationalizing his company. I agree that's not conclusive proof that the government has done something to him, but speculating that they have hardly seems like "mental gymnastics".
miked85 6y ago
> How much more mental gymnastics do we need? The only mental gymnastics I see are in the post I am replying to.
hawkice 6y ago
I read his comments, and have studied Chinese and China for years. While he took a pretty slight risk, (it seems) he only criticized other business owners and potential regulatory ideas. Honestly, his comments were so mild that you'd probably regularly hear similar stuff _coming from the regulators themselves_ in most other countries (developed or no). I'm not sure where on HN you found the sentiment Jack Ma was considered a national security threat. I think you're painting a picture here that is very bizarre, and not supplying the context necessary to understand why.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  > I'm not sure where on HN you found the sentiment Jack Ma was considered a national security threat. During the HN submission about Ant's IPO, before it was halted. For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24910410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24910410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24906771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24906771
  - hawkice 6y ago
    One of those was flagged, so it's pretty clearly "not-HN". The other says it's a state-run business (which, I mean, lots of people disagreed with that). That's miles away from saying something is a security threat [edit: it's worth saying, for those not clicking the link, he compares it to Saudi Aramco, which is, I mean, I've never heard that IPO described as a security threat either, so there's not really even any implications I can detect]. Nowhere in there is the narrative you're describing.
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      It's gaslighting. The pro-China crowd has gotten very good at this. Look for the downvotes on posts with countervailing narratives.
      - dang 6y ago
        Please don't break the site guidelines like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html This sort of perception is notoriously unreliable and is pretty much entirely in the eye of the beholder. The majority of comments in this thread, and basically every other HN thread on the topic, are not at all as you describe.
sebmellen 6y ago
With all due respect it seems all of your tweets center around defending the Chinese government. Why??? I mean, saying that: > Many people see the Chinese govt's deficiencies as a result of "evil". I don't really subscribe to that. I think it has more to do with "incompetence". Building a large organization, with the right culture, is hard. is kind of ridiculous. Would you say the same thing about the Soviets (with their Gulags) or Nazis (with their death camps)? I mean, literal genocide [2] is not just "incompetence". It's something far more malevolent. And talking about "building the right culture" sounds like Silicon Valley startup-babble, and seems wholly inadequate as a response to the magnitude of surveillance and oppression in China [3]. [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_China
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  Of course it's ridiculous if you only know China through the media. But have you considered that maybe the media representation is inaccurate? I've actually lived there, my wife comes from there, and my family is still there. This is combined with new information about China coming from the west, and having no restrictions here. I've studied some of China's recent history, a subject which is rarely taught in the west. Why do you think you know the truth better than I do? > Also, why live in the Netherlands if China is so great? Wouldn't it make sense to move back there, if everything is on the up & up? Because China wasn't great. I came here in 1993 with my parents, back then China was dirt-poor. My wife came here much more recently, in 2012, and she's of the opinion that the Netherlands is very boring and has no good food compared to China. She'd fly back multiple times a year if she could. For a more realistic perspective on Chinese society and its changes in the past 20 years, you should read this: The American Dream Is Alive in China https://palladiummag.com/2019/10/11/the-american-dream-is-alive-in-china/ https://palladiummag.com/2019/10/11/the-american-dream-is-al... > is kind of ridiculous. This is a whole different topic. There's a lot to deconstruct and to respond to in just those few sentences you typed, and those few links you sent. I would be glad to engage with you on this subject, but I have to know something first: do you truly wish for a conversation, or do you just want to stick with your existing opinion? China has problems, but it isn't the boogeyman the media makes it out to be. When the west better understands China, and when the west and China come together, the whole world wins.
bigpumpkin 6y ago
I just want to say I support your views, which are obviously true to anyone remotely knowledgeable about China. Although that is apparently a rarity.
murat124 6y ago
You may love China but CCP is not China.
- echelon 6y ago
  This is an important distinction. China is awesome. The CCP sucks.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  You think that if the KMT had won, that China would have been better off? Do you have any idea how corrupt the KMT was? The CCP won for a reason. CCP is mainland China. According to a poll by Harvard, who collected data over a 15 year period through anonymous in-person interviews, support for the central government has increased in this 15 year period. In 2016 (last year of the study), it was at an all-time high: 96% of respondents said they're satisfied or very satisfied with the central government. That doesn't mean I "love the CCP". But is there any other party out there who actually advances the interests of Chinese civilization?
seanmcdirmid 6y ago
Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat, is going to toe the party line (literally) since the consequences for not doing so these days can be severe. We’ve been through this before with other business people or defrocked public officials: Jack Ma is currently having a peaceful relaxing vacation at one of the party’s many secure resorts (Chinese have memes too). Whether he comes out of this like Fan Binbin or not isn’t anything we will know until it happens.
- FPGAhacker 6y ago
  It’s “toe the line.”
  - seanmcdirmid 6y ago
    Fixed.
- chrischen 6y ago
  First, it's "toe the line." Second, you're essentially saying that if the other person lives in China it doesn't matter what they say. Think about that for a second, and also about whether or not it really matters where they live if you've put some critical thought into their arguments. Granted some of what he says is subjective, but for something like this that's all you can really get. But if you've already decided the enemy must be wrong then there's no point discussing anything. Third, the OP you were replying to said he lived in China, but according to his Twitter he's not living in China. So does that meet your standards of considering his opinions?
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  > Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat Neither myself, nor Cyrus Janssen, are currently living in China. This is my genuine opinion, believe it or not. Nobody forces me, nobody pays me. I thought people are supposed to be "against the CCP but support the Chinese people". Is your support limited to Chinese people who are against the CCP? Why do you not reflect for a while on why someone like me, who has grown up with western culture and has independently investigated China, is not as anti-China as you are? Why is it hard to accept that maybe some of of core assumptions you have about China is wrong? And no, you don't go to jail for not toeing the party line. That's not how it works. They censor you if your views are stirring up social unrest or calling for overthrow. But they don't force you to say things they want. At least, that's the case for average citizen. I suppose if you're a high-level business executive with many ties to the government, then things become more complex. But that's not very different from the west, is it? If you piss off a government customer, you won't be jailed, but do you think they'd be happy to continue doing business with you?
arcticbull 6y ago
So... where's multi-billionaire Xiao Jianhua? After being abducted from the Four Seasons in Hong Kong by the CCP, he popped up to explain he was seeking medical treatment on the mainland (haha) three years ago, and nobody's heard from him since. Also laying low? Or do you think he's discovered a new love of mining rare earth minerals in Xinjiang? C'mon now, this isn't exactly some big exoneration one way or the other, is it? This happens from time to time. We both know there's a list of famous and semi-famous people as long as your arm you haven't heard from in a while. Where's Fan Bingbing? Where's the former head of Interpol, Meng Hongwei? [2] Think they too have discovered a sudden need for mainland medical treatment -- or do you think it's more likely they may have discovered a passion for mining minerals also? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/31/world/asia/xiao-jianhua-china-hong-kong-billionaire.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/31/world/asia/xiao-jianhua-c... [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-06/the-people-who-china-disappeared-in-2018-and-where-they-are-now/10676016 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-06/the-people-who-china-...
- Aunche 6y ago
  Fan Bingbing has made multiple public appearances.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- nickysielicki 6y ago
  And where's Chen Qiushi -- or any of the other journalists who covered the draconian coronavirus measures taken in China, who suddenly disappeared a year ago?
  - La1n 6y ago
    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54277439 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54277439
- ipiz0618 6y ago
  Also Gui Minhai, Chen Qiushi, the 12 HK residents, countless protestors...surely China has a tolerant government according to this guy.
raverbashing 6y ago
I think that from their several actions that China/CCP is not the best example of democracy and criticism acceptance So no I don't buy the retoric of misunderstood China > I am from China and I have family in China. So you're not behind the great firewall and don't need to contend with official internet censorship.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  > It has been perfectly clear with the Chinese negligence around Covid Urgh, let me tell you some facts. On February 1 2020, I travelled from China (not Wuhan) back to the Netherlands, having aborted my holiday early. Wuhan was in lockdown for a week at that point, and my flight to the Netherlands was the very last one I could get. At that point, the WHO also declared global emergency. I arrived in Germany and the Netherlands. What happened in the airports? No temperature checks or other checks. Nobody who took note of my name for contact tracing. Nothing. Back in the Netherlands, I called the CDC: can I get tested? Reply: no, not even if I pay for it myself. I ask: do I need to quarantine myself? Reply: nope. I didn't trust that. Chinese media has been raging for weeks about how infectious and dangerous it was, and that it could be spread asymptomatically. So I voluntarily quarantined myself and my family for 2 weeks. Turned out I wasn't infected. Up until March or April or so, I saw on tv and newspapers and how multiple western governments called covid just a flu, that we're "well prepared", even criticizing the lockdown in Wuhan as a human rights violation. You want to talk negligence? Okay, China could have done a better job, but let's say they were earlier by 2 weeks and reported to WHO mid-Dec rather than late-Dec. Would that have changed anything when for months the west totally dismissed the virus as being dangerous, and gleed at China's misfortune? > and how they treated the doctors that sounded the alarm Li Wenliang was not jailed. He was reprimanded by the police, and could go back to work the next day. He wasn't the first one: the first doctor who said something was Jiang Jixian, whose work led to the WHO escalation on Dec 31, 1 day after Li Wenliang said something. The Chinese court later ruled that the police's treatment of Li Wenliang was unjustified. The police then apologized. See also: "Some whistleblowers are more equal than others" https://www.mango-press.com/some-whistleblowers-are-more-equal-than-others/ https://www.mango-press.com/some-whistleblowers-are-more-equ... > the HK issue and with the Uighur concentration camps These are whole different, and rather complicated topics. I could go into them, but I need to know from you: do you actually want to discuss, or is this meant as a diss to me? > So you're not behind the great firewall huh? Reminds me of Chinese agents bullying Chinese students in Canada to not badmouth the government So what? I don't "bully" others for disagreeing with me about China, I talk to them. If you ask me whether those students should bully, then I'd say no: they should discuss. That's something they need to learn. But the same applies to a great many people in the west, who despite being raised in a free society, prefer to cancel rather than talk. Still, that doesn't mean that those students' support for China is not genuine or legit.
baybal2 6y ago
Quite naive so. The thinking that one can at least understand the rationale of not killing a hen laying golden eggs has no place in China. The reality is exact the opposite, and elites routinely keeping shooting the country, and themselves in the foot. Why should they care? Any ranked party member half way the ladder already has enough privileges to swim in lard for the rest of his life. I was pretty much there when Shenzhen govt bulldozed close to 10000 factories in between 2009, and 2012 for universiade vanities. That was one third of regions industry! One third That was single most economically suicidal move I've seen any government do, and that was right after the global financial crisis. That made a double digit dip in country's exports, and industrial output, so big it was.
ipiz0618 6y ago
Given China's history to staging videos / forging evidence / faking suicides for oppositions [1][2], I'd say this is a valid concern. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai#Release_from_PSB_custody_and_apparent_recapture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai#Release_from_PSB_cu... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books
- glenstein 6y ago
  Thanks. I've been on HN for more than a decade and this thread is just mind-boggling to read. Whatever people think is indicated by the facts of Jack Ma's case, it should be reconciled with the China's established history of abductions and disappearances, the reality of which are not disputed.
baybal2 6y ago
> rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. And it is bad. The country run by a freaking communist party, if somebody didn't notice. And we are not even mentioning gulag, and hookers. > In contrast to China's reputation here in the west, the govt actually DOES listen to criticism. Because it is afraid of it? > The key is to be constructive, and to criticize policy rather than people. And follow the example of thousands of Chinese rural petitioners "constructively" sent to gulags. > Calling for violence and overthrow of the govt is not allowed. But how else would people stage a revolution against Beijing?
- La1n 6y ago
  >sent to gulags The GULAG was a specific USSR agency and their camps. You can't just call any prison system you personally don't like GULAG.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  Look, if you don't believe me, at least believe in Kishore Mahbubani, ex-Singapore diplomat and ex-UN Security Council head. He's spoken extensively about this in his book "Has China Won?" and can corroborate what I said. In the past 40 years, the freedoms of Chinese people have exploded. People could not choose what to wear, where to work, what to eat, where to live. Now they can. Millions travel world-wide every year, and all of them return home. Why would they do that if China is as bad as you say? As for "a revolution against Beijing": prof. Mahbubani says that there are actually hundreds of protests in China every year. But those people aren't protesting against the central government: they're trying to get the central government's attention, to help them with their grievances. The central government is very popular. According to a poll by Harvard, who collected data over a 15 year period through anonymous in-person interviews, support for the central government has increased in this 15 year period. In 2016 (last year of the study), it was at an all-time high: 96% of respondents said they're satisfied or very satisfied with the central government. What makes you believe you are more right than prof. Mahbubani and Harvard?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
kobayashi 6y ago
I'm not sure if, or how, one should engage with an apologist for a tiranical, genocidal, dictatorial regime.
- hungryhobo 6y ago
  accept that the tiranical, genocidal, dictatorial regime is appreciated by many in china.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  I'll tell you how: by being open to the notion that maybe "tiranical, genocidal and dictatorial" are false. And that Chinese people have different values, which are equally valid, but that are nevertheless not forced upon you. If you actually want to discuss this, I'd be happy to. But I need to know whether you are genuine, or whether you merely mean to diss me.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
ex3ndr 6y ago
This is exactly what iranian people told me: they are democratic country. AND in the very same sentence they concluded that they can ban messaging apps if government want to.
- La1n 6y ago
  Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive
ImprobableTruth 6y ago
For all I know most things I know about China could be wrong - I'm certain that a lot of it is (seeing our media uncritically reporting the Adrian Zenz stuff has been mindblowing), but how could I possibly know whether something is true when there is so much disinfo going around? Like, what gives you the confidence that you're not just being fed propaganda yourself?
jdc 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

duxup 6y ago

He could be running a wonky business financially, and a victim of something else.

echelon 6y ago

> How much more mental gymnastics do we need? > I am from China and I have family in China. Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? Please realize also that many in the West (myself included) are freaking out about China and are trying to counter its rise. This is a narrative that fits into their world view. I'm more worried about CCP fascism and hypersonic nukes than I am about climate change. I'm worried about what happens when Chinese software developers outnumber us, and all of our tech has been cheaply duplicated and sold around the world. When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode? I'm worried about our companies and politicians adopting capitalism and democracy with Chinese characteristics. --- Edit: downvotes trigger HN's post filter, so I'm including my replies below --- > That doesn't seem to fit the narrative that people have the agency to think differently from the status quo Americans would like to impose upon the world. Last time I was in China, a good third of the people I spoke in depth with openly discussed the corruption and expressed dissenting views. This was in private, of course. There were more than a few die-hard pro-CCP folks, but the talk of corruption was far more pervasive. You're still probably right. > Is this Great Replacement propaganda? It does sound a little like it. That's not at all my intention. I think it's appropriate to worry about a country copying tech that has a much larger, more productive population to sustain growth. Their protectionism doesn't help. But really this is all rooted in the single-party fascism. I'd be fine if China were a democracy. I might even move there myself. I don't care about my genes or my race or my progeny. I want the world to grow freer with every passing year. The CCP represents a major stumbling block in my worldview and sense of security. > You sit down and try to succeed on merit rather than privilege for once in your life Okay, that's a good point. But I'm working my ass off as it is, so I don't know how much latitude for adjustment I have here.

approxim8ion 6y ago
>Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? What if they don't want to? There is a trend in the west that pretends like dissent would overflow in China if it wasn't suppressed, but what if people genuinely actually like the government? That doesn't seem to fit the narrative that people have the agency to think differently from the status quo Americans would like to impose upon the world. >I'm worried about what happens when Chinese software developers outnumber us Is this Great Replacement propaganda? >When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode? You sit down and try to succeed on merit rather than privilege for once in your life, not unlike the 200-odd countries that aren't superpowers.
- nyokodo 6y ago
  > but what if people genuinely actually like the government? If that were the case then there would be no need for the censorship.
  - approxim8ion 6y ago
    I didn't mean all the people all the time. But this harranguing of any random individual asking them why they aren't criticizing the CCP with every living breath seems to count on the idea that they are afraid to speak up and/or brainwashed with evil oriental commie magic.
FooBarWidget 6y ago
There are a couple of paradigm shifts needed. In mainland China, people value outcome legitimacy rather than procedural legitimacy and freedom of speech. In other words: they care whether the government actually does a good job, rather than whether the procedure through which the government was selected is correct, or whether they could criticize Xi. How would the government get feedback then if people aren't allowed to criticize? As I said before: one can submit feedback about policy. Just don't go around and insult people. The government monitors social media as well for grievances. At the same time they censor social media to prevent mass unrest, but they take grievances seriously and works to solve them. Whereas the west has freedom of speech as a core value, mainland Chinese value unity, face, action over talk and freedom from poverty. To them, it's much more important to be able to have a good economic life, than freedom of speech. After all, 2 generations ago the Chinese were dirt-poor. When I was born, food rationing still existed! As Kishore Mahbubani, ex-UN Security Council head and ex-Singapore diplomat, said: the CCP is in actuality more like a Chinese Civilization Party. Their goal is to advance the interests of Chinese civilization, not to spread communism world-wide. China is not facist. Facism means that society is deliberately split up in classes (e.g. races), with one class being seen as inherently superior to other "untermenschen". This is not China. There's no notion that Han is better than Yao, or whatever. Official government policy is to give ethnic minorities preferential treatment, such as easier access to university. Or maybe you're using "facism" as a generic word for something you don't like? This is an actual question, not a diss. As for hypersonic weapons: yes escalating weaponry is not good. But on the other hand, the US is not blameless in this: "The US Has No Place in the South China Sea Dispute" https://original.antiwar.com/dave_decamp/2020/07/19/the-us-has-no-place-in-the-south-china-sea-dispute/ https://original.antiwar.com/dave_decamp/2020/07/19/the-us-h... The US isn't supposed to be sailing warships around in the South China Sea in the first place. How about we all calm down and de-escalate at the same time, rather than trying to demonize a single party? > When we have no other advantage, what then? Do we implode? What made America and the west great? It's because of the great many talented individuals, focus on science and technology, investment in education, research and development. Keep doing that. We've been dropping that ball lately, becoming complacent. The west can easily compete with China toe-to-toe if only we get our shit together. China is not interested in exporting its governance model. It has never done that. There's no evidence it ever will do that. Why should they? It's not in their interest to change others' governance model. China's rise as a superpower is easily the most peaceful one in human history. China is not an enemy, not a threat. When China and the west come together, the whole world wins.

lxe 6y ago

A Chinese person's perspective about China and its politics/government on HN/Reddit? Enjoy the following classics: 1) you're brainwashed. 2) how do you justify the human rights violations? 3) you're a CCP shill 4) Would you publicly curse Xi and denounce the CCP? Good luck!

secretcombos 6y ago
He could very well be from the 50 Cent Party. HN has no doubt been infiltrated by them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
- cepth 6y ago
  Yes, a HN member with a profile created in December of 2008, 5800+ Karma, with links to his Twitter and name of his employer in his profile page is a 五毛(50 center). The CCP is truly all powerful! If my dripping sarcasm wasn’t clear, you’re way off base here. Edit 1: to the downvoters, please feel free to explain why it’s appropriate to accuse a 12-year HN member of being a paid shill for the CCP when all evidence points to the contrary.
  - lxe 6y ago
    Keybase, twitter, normal twitter tech posts stuff... followers... why randomly throw conspiracies at people?
  - ncann 6y ago
    The one you're replying to sounds like sarcasm to me. Or a very ironic comment given the comment it's replying to. It's hard to tell.
    - cepth 6y ago
      I might’ve thought so too, but the account I’m replying to seems to be a genuine CCP critic (which is totally fine!). A post about Putin and the CCP exploiting US domestic political turmoil: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25830075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25830075 A book recommendation by a longtime China-skeptical writer: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843422 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gertz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gertz) My personal preference is for a HN community where dissenting views don’t lead to assigning ulterior motives (in this case being paid to shill for the CCP) to our debating “opponents”.

zhdc1 6y ago

It's extremely unlikely that the founder and CEO of a $600B publicly traded company would completely disappear for several months on his own initiative. A short interview or a couple of emails would have dispelled all speculation that he was detained without agitating the Chinese government.

liuliu 6y ago
He is not the CEO. I don't think he holds any official title since late 2019.

ALittleLight 6y ago

As I understand it he's been out of the public eye since October, after making comments critical of the Chinese government, and now the government is making noise about nationalizing his company. I agree that's not conclusive proof that the government has done something to him, but speculating that they have hardly seems like "mental gymnastics".

miked85 6y ago

> How much more mental gymnastics do we need? The only mental gymnastics I see are in the post I am replying to.

hawkice 6y ago

I read his comments, and have studied Chinese and China for years. While he took a pretty slight risk, (it seems) he only criticized other business owners and potential regulatory ideas. Honestly, his comments were so mild that you'd probably regularly hear similar stuff _coming from the regulators themselves_ in most other countries (developed or no). I'm not sure where on HN you found the sentiment Jack Ma was considered a national security threat. I think you're painting a picture here that is very bizarre, and not supplying the context necessary to understand why.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
> I'm not sure where on HN you found the sentiment Jack Ma was considered a national security threat. During the HN submission about Ant's IPO, before it was halted. For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24910410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24910410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24906771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24906771
- hawkice 6y ago
  One of those was flagged, so it's pretty clearly "not-HN". The other says it's a state-run business (which, I mean, lots of people disagreed with that). That's miles away from saying something is a security threat [edit: it's worth saying, for those not clicking the link, he compares it to Saudi Aramco, which is, I mean, I've never heard that IPO described as a security threat either, so there's not really even any implications I can detect]. Nowhere in there is the narrative you're describing.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    It's gaslighting. The pro-China crowd has gotten very good at this. Look for the downvotes on posts with countervailing narratives.
    - dang 6y ago
      Please don't break the site guidelines like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html This sort of perception is notoriously unreliable and is pretty much entirely in the eye of the beholder. The majority of comments in this thread, and basically every other HN thread on the topic, are not at all as you describe.

sebmellen 6y ago

With all due respect it seems all of your tweets center around defending the Chinese government. Why??? I mean, saying that: > Many people see the Chinese govt's deficiencies as a result of "evil". I don't really subscribe to that. I think it has more to do with "incompetence". Building a large organization, with the right culture, is hard. is kind of ridiculous. Would you say the same thing about the Soviets (with their Gulags) or Nazis (with their death camps)? I mean, literal genocide [2] is not just "incompetence". It's something far more malevolent. And talking about "building the right culture" sounds like Silicon Valley startup-babble, and seems wholly inadequate as a response to the magnitude of surveillance and oppression in China [3]. [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_China

FooBarWidget 6y ago
Of course it's ridiculous if you only know China through the media. But have you considered that maybe the media representation is inaccurate? I've actually lived there, my wife comes from there, and my family is still there. This is combined with new information about China coming from the west, and having no restrictions here. I've studied some of China's recent history, a subject which is rarely taught in the west. Why do you think you know the truth better than I do? > Also, why live in the Netherlands if China is so great? Wouldn't it make sense to move back there, if everything is on the up & up? Because China wasn't great. I came here in 1993 with my parents, back then China was dirt-poor. My wife came here much more recently, in 2012, and she's of the opinion that the Netherlands is very boring and has no good food compared to China. She'd fly back multiple times a year if she could. For a more realistic perspective on Chinese society and its changes in the past 20 years, you should read this: The American Dream Is Alive in China https://palladiummag.com/2019/10/11/the-american-dream-is-alive-in-china/ https://palladiummag.com/2019/10/11/the-american-dream-is-al... > is kind of ridiculous. This is a whole different topic. There's a lot to deconstruct and to respond to in just those few sentences you typed, and those few links you sent. I would be glad to engage with you on this subject, but I have to know something first: do you truly wish for a conversation, or do you just want to stick with your existing opinion? China has problems, but it isn't the boogeyman the media makes it out to be. When the west better understands China, and when the west and China come together, the whole world wins.

bigpumpkin 6y ago

I just want to say I support your views, which are obviously true to anyone remotely knowledgeable about China. Although that is apparently a rarity.

murat124 6y ago

You may love China but CCP is not China.

echelon 6y ago
This is an important distinction. China is awesome. The CCP sucks.
FooBarWidget 6y ago
You think that if the KMT had won, that China would have been better off? Do you have any idea how corrupt the KMT was? The CCP won for a reason. CCP is mainland China. According to a poll by Harvard, who collected data over a 15 year period through anonymous in-person interviews, support for the central government has increased in this 15 year period. In 2016 (last year of the study), it was at an all-time high: 96% of respondents said they're satisfied or very satisfied with the central government. That doesn't mean I "love the CCP". But is there any other party out there who actually advances the interests of Chinese civilization?

seanmcdirmid 6y ago

Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat, is going to toe the party line (literally) since the consequences for not doing so these days can be severe. We’ve been through this before with other business people or defrocked public officials: Jack Ma is currently having a peaceful relaxing vacation at one of the party’s many secure resorts (Chinese have memes too). Whether he comes out of this like Fan Binbin or not isn’t anything we will know until it happens.

FPGAhacker 6y ago
It’s “toe the line.”
- seanmcdirmid 6y ago
  Fixed.
chrischen 6y ago
First, it's "toe the line." Second, you're essentially saying that if the other person lives in China it doesn't matter what they say. Think about that for a second, and also about whether or not it really matters where they live if you've put some critical thought into their arguments. Granted some of what he says is subjective, but for something like this that's all you can really get. But if you've already decided the enemy must be wrong then there's no point discussing anything. Third, the OP you were replying to said he lived in China, but according to his Twitter he's not living in China. So does that meet your standards of considering his opinions?
FooBarWidget 6y ago
> Anyone who is living in China, citizen or expat Neither myself, nor Cyrus Janssen, are currently living in China. This is my genuine opinion, believe it or not. Nobody forces me, nobody pays me. I thought people are supposed to be "against the CCP but support the Chinese people". Is your support limited to Chinese people who are against the CCP? Why do you not reflect for a while on why someone like me, who has grown up with western culture and has independently investigated China, is not as anti-China as you are? Why is it hard to accept that maybe some of of core assumptions you have about China is wrong? And no, you don't go to jail for not toeing the party line. That's not how it works. They censor you if your views are stirring up social unrest or calling for overthrow. But they don't force you to say things they want. At least, that's the case for average citizen. I suppose if you're a high-level business executive with many ties to the government, then things become more complex. But that's not very different from the west, is it? If you piss off a government customer, you won't be jailed, but do you think they'd be happy to continue doing business with you?

arcticbull 6y ago

So... where's multi-billionaire Xiao Jianhua? After being abducted from the Four Seasons in Hong Kong by the CCP, he popped up to explain he was seeking medical treatment on the mainland (haha) three years ago, and nobody's heard from him since. Also laying low? Or do you think he's discovered a new love of mining rare earth minerals in Xinjiang? C'mon now, this isn't exactly some big exoneration one way or the other, is it? This happens from time to time. We both know there's a list of famous and semi-famous people as long as your arm you haven't heard from in a while. Where's Fan Bingbing? Where's the former head of Interpol, Meng Hongwei? [2] Think they too have discovered a sudden need for mainland medical treatment -- or do you think it's more likely they may have discovered a passion for mining minerals also? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/31/world/asia/xiao-jianhua-china-hong-kong-billionaire.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/31/world/asia/xiao-jianhua-c... [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-06/the-people-who-china-disappeared-in-2018-and-where-they-are-now/10676016 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-06/the-people-who-china-...

Aunche 6y ago
Fan Bingbing has made multiple public appearances.
deleted 6y ago
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nickysielicki 6y ago
And where's Chen Qiushi -- or any of the other journalists who covered the draconian coronavirus measures taken in China, who suddenly disappeared a year ago?
- La1n 6y ago
  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54277439 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54277439
ipiz0618 6y ago
Also Gui Minhai, Chen Qiushi, the 12 HK residents, countless protestors...surely China has a tolerant government according to this guy.

raverbashing 6y ago

I think that from their several actions that China/CCP is not the best example of democracy and criticism acceptance So no I don't buy the retoric of misunderstood China > I am from China and I have family in China. So you're not behind the great firewall and don't need to contend with official internet censorship.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
> It has been perfectly clear with the Chinese negligence around Covid Urgh, let me tell you some facts. On February 1 2020, I travelled from China (not Wuhan) back to the Netherlands, having aborted my holiday early. Wuhan was in lockdown for a week at that point, and my flight to the Netherlands was the very last one I could get. At that point, the WHO also declared global emergency. I arrived in Germany and the Netherlands. What happened in the airports? No temperature checks or other checks. Nobody who took note of my name for contact tracing. Nothing. Back in the Netherlands, I called the CDC: can I get tested? Reply: no, not even if I pay for it myself. I ask: do I need to quarantine myself? Reply: nope. I didn't trust that. Chinese media has been raging for weeks about how infectious and dangerous it was, and that it could be spread asymptomatically. So I voluntarily quarantined myself and my family for 2 weeks. Turned out I wasn't infected. Up until March or April or so, I saw on tv and newspapers and how multiple western governments called covid just a flu, that we're "well prepared", even criticizing the lockdown in Wuhan as a human rights violation. You want to talk negligence? Okay, China could have done a better job, but let's say they were earlier by 2 weeks and reported to WHO mid-Dec rather than late-Dec. Would that have changed anything when for months the west totally dismissed the virus as being dangerous, and gleed at China's misfortune? > and how they treated the doctors that sounded the alarm Li Wenliang was not jailed. He was reprimanded by the police, and could go back to work the next day. He wasn't the first one: the first doctor who said something was Jiang Jixian, whose work led to the WHO escalation on Dec 31, 1 day after Li Wenliang said something. The Chinese court later ruled that the police's treatment of Li Wenliang was unjustified. The police then apologized. See also: "Some whistleblowers are more equal than others" https://www.mango-press.com/some-whistleblowers-are-more-equal-than-others/ https://www.mango-press.com/some-whistleblowers-are-more-equ... > the HK issue and with the Uighur concentration camps These are whole different, and rather complicated topics. I could go into them, but I need to know from you: do you actually want to discuss, or is this meant as a diss to me? > So you're not behind the great firewall huh? Reminds me of Chinese agents bullying Chinese students in Canada to not badmouth the government So what? I don't "bully" others for disagreeing with me about China, I talk to them. If you ask me whether those students should bully, then I'd say no: they should discuss. That's something they need to learn. But the same applies to a great many people in the west, who despite being raised in a free society, prefer to cancel rather than talk. Still, that doesn't mean that those students' support for China is not genuine or legit.

baybal2 6y ago

Quite naive so. The thinking that one can at least understand the rationale of not killing a hen laying golden eggs has no place in China. The reality is exact the opposite, and elites routinely keeping shooting the country, and themselves in the foot. Why should they care? Any ranked party member half way the ladder already has enough privileges to swim in lard for the rest of his life. I was pretty much there when Shenzhen govt bulldozed close to 10000 factories in between 2009, and 2012 for universiade vanities. That was one third of regions industry! One third That was single most economically suicidal move I've seen any government do, and that was right after the global financial crisis. That made a double digit dip in country's exports, and industrial output, so big it was.

ipiz0618 6y ago

Given China's history to staging videos / forging evidence / faking suicides for oppositions [1][2], I'd say this is a valid concern. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai#Release_from_PSB_custody_and_apparent_recapture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai#Release_from_PSB_cu... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books

glenstein 6y ago
Thanks. I've been on HN for more than a decade and this thread is just mind-boggling to read. Whatever people think is indicated by the facts of Jack Ma's case, it should be reconciled with the China's established history of abductions and disappearances, the reality of which are not disputed.

baybal2 6y ago

> rather than trying to forcefully shoehorn the facts into a 'but China still bad' narrative. And it is bad. The country run by a freaking communist party, if somebody didn't notice. And we are not even mentioning gulag, and hookers. > In contrast to China's reputation here in the west, the govt actually DOES listen to criticism. Because it is afraid of it? > The key is to be constructive, and to criticize policy rather than people. And follow the example of thousands of Chinese rural petitioners "constructively" sent to gulags. > Calling for violence and overthrow of the govt is not allowed. But how else would people stage a revolution against Beijing?

La1n 6y ago
>sent to gulags The GULAG was a specific USSR agency and their camps. You can't just call any prison system you personally don't like GULAG.
FooBarWidget 6y ago
Look, if you don't believe me, at least believe in Kishore Mahbubani, ex-Singapore diplomat and ex-UN Security Council head. He's spoken extensively about this in his book "Has China Won?" and can corroborate what I said. In the past 40 years, the freedoms of Chinese people have exploded. People could not choose what to wear, where to work, what to eat, where to live. Now they can. Millions travel world-wide every year, and all of them return home. Why would they do that if China is as bad as you say? As for "a revolution against Beijing": prof. Mahbubani says that there are actually hundreds of protests in China every year. But those people aren't protesting against the central government: they're trying to get the central government's attention, to help them with their grievances. The central government is very popular. According to a poll by Harvard, who collected data over a 15 year period through anonymous in-person interviews, support for the central government has increased in this 15 year period. In 2016 (last year of the study), it was at an all-time high: 96% of respondents said they're satisfied or very satisfied with the central government. What makes you believe you are more right than prof. Mahbubani and Harvard?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

kobayashi 6y ago

I'm not sure if, or how, one should engage with an apologist for a tiranical, genocidal, dictatorial regime.

hungryhobo 6y ago
accept that the tiranical, genocidal, dictatorial regime is appreciated by many in china.
FooBarWidget 6y ago
I'll tell you how: by being open to the notion that maybe "tiranical, genocidal and dictatorial" are false. And that Chinese people have different values, which are equally valid, but that are nevertheless not forced upon you. If you actually want to discuss this, I'd be happy to. But I need to know whether you are genuine, or whether you merely mean to diss me.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

ex3ndr 6y ago

This is exactly what iranian people told me: they are democratic country. AND in the very same sentence they concluded that they can ban messaging apps if government want to.

La1n 6y ago
Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive

ImprobableTruth 6y ago

For all I know most things I know about China could be wrong - I'm certain that a lot of it is (seeing our media uncritically reporting the Adrian Zenz stuff has been mindblowing), but how could I possibly know whether something is true when there is so much disinfo going around? Like, what gives you the confidence that you're not just being fed propaganda yourself?

jdc 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide

deleted 6y ago

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