19 ms·

Jack Ma makes first live appearance in three months in online meet

318 points by late 6y ago

anothernewdude 6y ago
50 seconds of prerecorded speech. yeah, okay China. Sure.
29athrowaway 6y ago
I would not be impressed. After reading this, everything is possible: https://www.odditycentral.com/news/chinas-rich-can-hire-body-doubles-to-serve-their-prison-time.html https://www.odditycentral.com/news/chinas-rich-can-hire-body...
- dmix 6y ago
  This isn't some low tier criminal case. China has done this before to other 'elites'. So did Saudi Arabia... this isn't showing up for a prison sentence.
- Saul_C 6y ago
  This is not true.
yonisto 6y ago
Now I need to be convinced it is not a deepfake
- deepstack 6y ago
  yeah it is legit concern with the current situation in the world.
  - deepstack 6y ago
    Maybe a live zoom call with be good.
- m463 6y ago
  Sassy Justice to investigate.
- anothernewdude 6y ago
  Yeah, his face looks too small in the video, lol.
  - tylergetsay 6y ago
    Could just be the camera lens but side by side photos it looks like they cropped the face in
- dan-robertson 6y ago
  I’m inclined to think no. If deepfakes weren’t a thing then there would be no need to fake something like this so I don’t think there’s be much reason to fake it now. Seems easier to just do the real thing. I think the whole point of the messaging is to make it obvious what’s happened without explicitly saying it and a deepfake doesn’t help with that. If they had done something worse they would have done it deliberately and would want to prove it. Kind of like when the Russians assassinate some dissident and go on their news to say “we absolutely deny the allegations that so and so was assassinated but I guess it just shows what happens when you are a traitor”
- growt 6y ago
  Maybe at some point we'll invent a new greeting (like waving your fingers before your face) to prove we're really the person on the screen.
  - tachyonbeam 6y ago
    No reason you can't "deepfake" that too. IMO, in the arms race of fakes vs detection technology, the fakes will inevitably win. Eventually, you won't be able to tell if content is fake at all. You'll just have to decide if you can trust the source or not.
sebmellen 6y ago
> In the 50-second video, Ma, dressed in a navy pullover, spoke directly to the camera from a room with grey marble walls and a striped carpet. It was not clear from the video or the Tianmu News article where he was speaking from. Uh, resurfacing from a fancy prison cell, perhaps? Can anyone find the video? EDIT: Here's the raw video: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1351751456827719681/video/1 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196.... If you watch his eye movements, it looks like he's reading from a script.
- nwotnagrom 6y ago
  Check this link out. Its the video from the Global Times Twitter Feed. https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3118454/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-delivers-video-speech-chinas-rural-teachers https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3118454/alibaba-f...
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Thank you for that. The direct link to the tweet is https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1351751456827719681/video/1 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196.... That does appear to be the best quality video available. Looks like it could be some form of house arrest.
    - cheweh 6y ago
      The video at https://tech.ifeng.com/c/83BS98wwWV9 https://tech.ifeng.com/c/83BS98wwWV9 is higher quality.
- echelon 6y ago
  This regime is no joke. We need to offer Hong Kong and Chinese citizens a fast and easy path to citizenship in the West. If we do not brain drain China, rehabilitate our manufacturing capability, and prevent the CCP's rise to global dominance, we'll all have our liberties threatened. It could start with an offer to Jack Ma. Offer for him to move to SF or Miami. Watch for the "ha, ha, no thanks", but see the impact it has on Chinese citizens. They're not stupid, and they know what's going on. Edit: 1. Brain drain. Adopt China's best, brightest, and most creative. 2. Culture war. Tell Disney it's time to stop being cozy and make a "Chernobyl" style film about Tiananmen, Uyghurs, Tibetans, et al. 3. Build up our global manufacture. Vietnam, India, Mexico, Africa, South America. 4. Build capacity domestically, especially for strategic needs. Build lots of factories on the border. Jobs programs. But also allow immigrant workers and provide a path to citizenship. 5. Commit to our strong allies in a trade pact. Europe, Japan, Korea... We can route out this evil. But we have to work hard. This is an existential crisis. The US and its allies should all be on board with this plan and commit to doing similarly.
duxup 6y ago
If Ma wanted to reappear and reassure people, not sure this would be his first choice, method, etc. It seems weirder to just pop up like this like nothing has been going on.
- dirtyid 6y ago
  It's part of Jack Ma Foundation's annual Rural Educators Award. A few more pictures: https://tech.ifeng.com/c/83BS98wwWV9 https://tech.ifeng.com/c/83BS98wwWV9 Here's one from 2020. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-01/07/c_138685262.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-01/07/c_138685262.htm Old UN article. https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2016/08/jack-ma-quality-rural-education-key-for-china/ https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2016/08/jack-...
  - duxup 6y ago
    The article mentions that.
    - dirtyid 6y ago
      Then it shouldn't be that weird, Ma overstepped with his speech and is carefully negotiating the minefield he's currently in. Alibaba stock rebounded ~5% since his showing. He'll slowly work his way back into public life as is customary for nature of his infraction. If CCP wanted to disappear him long term, there'd be predictable and fraud/corruption charges already laid.
      - duxup 6y ago
        The situation is weird regardless of the existence of a charity.
        LegitShady 6y ago
        The situation is normal for totalitarianism.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
So he only had one public event scheduled between late October and now? If he suddenly ended up in custody, you'd think he would have had more events set up then canceled.
oars 6y ago
I would love to see Facebook and Amazon researchers join forces and try to figure out whether this is a deepfake or not. https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/machine-learning/facebook-uses-amazon-ec2-to-evaluate-the-deepfake-detection-challenge/ https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/machine-learning/facebook-uses-...
- paxys 6y ago
  It doesn't have to be a deepfake. It isn't hard to compel someone in captivity to record a 50 second video.
  - angry-tempest 6y ago
    At that point, why not get an actor and use a ton of make up to cover the imperfections?
- themodelplumber 6y ago
  During the video he keeps blinking 'e' in morse code. If real, he could be trying to communicate that he's hungry? 饿 :-)
guerrilla 6y ago
Disappointingly paranoid comments jumping to conclusions here. It's equally possible that Ma's disappearance is self-imposed after making an out of character speech that was not well received by investors and regulators alike. We don't know either way at this point. To quote Leo Lewis of the FT: "His miscalculation now looks spectacular, even by his astral standards of showmanship." [1] 1. https://www.ft.com/content/b3a94f55-5e44-417f-a869-a542d0527fe7 https://www.ft.com/content/b3a94f55-5e44-417f-a869-a542d0527...
- echelon 6y ago
  Total bullshit. This is the CCP stepping on this man's throat.
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    It's certainly possible but the fact is that there's no evidence or indication one way or the other at this point.
    - netsharc 6y ago
      Lately the close-mindedness in HN has become amazing... many here seems to be a China expert, and their expertise says "I know what it is, it's an evil regime!".
      - slumpt_ 6y ago
        Given their treatment of Uighurs, yes - there is an element of evil. It’s not as if the governments of the world are immune to this - the US has been involved in a long history of heinous acts and China is no different.
        netsharc 6y ago
        Yes, they're running terrible concentration camps.. but for some HNer to be able to say "I can see from this video that Jack Ma was imprisoned and is being forced by the CCP to do this"? Great job being an expert! How about some political nuance? Maybe they wouldn't dare just mess with a billionaire who was well respected just a few months ago? Well, maybe they do dare, I don't know, I'm not an expert in Chinese politics. But some commenters here seem to take one little thing they know and extrapolate it to absolute knowledge of how that government works in all aspects.
FooBarWidget 6y ago
In the last Hacker News thread, people were so sure that the government jailed him for criticizing the party. Even though there was no evidence of such, people just assumed it MUST be true because the CCP MUST be evil. And before Jack Ma "disappeared", people were worried about Jack Ma and Ant Group being a national security threat, because of his ties with CCP. Because "CCP evil". No matter the facts, people just conveniently change their interpretation to shoehorn everything in a nonsensical "see, CCP is evil" narrative. I think it's time to accept that most people have a SERIOUSLY deranged and inaccurate view of China, and that things in China are far more complex and nuanced than people give it credit for. I say this as someone who's born in China, and have a Chinese wife, and family in China. Maybe there's an alternative point of view than "CCP is evil" that is at least just as valid. So it turns out he was just laying low after all. Yes his comments were not appreciated, but that doesn't mean they jail anyone for the slightest criticism. The reason why his comments upset people is because China, after having experienced a huge boom in material wealth in the 2000s, which accompanied mass government corruption and increase in inequality, China is now in a phase with more focus on equality and sharing the wealth. Jack's criticism hit a nerve because it came over as a rich man trying to change society for his own benefit, rather than lifting society with him. See Cyrus Janssen's blog post about this: https://cyrusjanssen.substack.com/p/trump-free-speech-and-where-is-jack https://cyrusjanssen.substack.com/p/trump-free-speech-and-wh... Cyrus is an expat who has worked in China for 12 years. Does China have problems? Of course it does. But that doesn't mean we need to villify it at every turn, and interpret everything in the worst possible manner in the absence of evidence. When the west better understands China, and when the west and China come together, the whole world wins.
- throwaway88098 6y ago
  This is the best answer I've seen. HN however is not a place for unpopular (and true) insights. It'll be downvoted to oblivion.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    I know. But I'm way past the point of being scared of that, or even caring. As a Chinese person I was scared of being lynched by the mob for speaking up (ironic isn't it, this is the so-called "free society" but apparently it only applies when you agree with the mob), but now I just think the truth must come out, and someone must push back against this insane, evidence-free anti-China hysteria. Notice that I'm not even saying "CCP good". I just say "it's nuanced and complex, there are alternative points of view". Which is what most things in reality are. But when it comes to China, people will only allow simplifiying it to a cartoon villain.
tsjq 6y ago
"CCP allows / forces Jack Ma to publish a video" , would be closer to truth .
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ConcreteGidget 6y ago
Does anyone have any book recommendations for non-chinese people to understand CCP power structures? I'm completely lost in all of this Jack Ma stuff.
- wllchng 6y ago
  The Party: The Secret World of China's Communist Rulers (2012)
  - loceng 6y ago
    I wonder if the 2021 version would have much different; were there known "re-education" camps then, etc?
    - pototo666 6y ago
      It is definitely different. Back in 2012 the party is controled by a group of elder guys, though there is someone at the top. Now it is dictated by Xi, who has already changed many things, like Chairman should only serve two terms. Luckily, he has no son.
    - yorwba 6y ago
      Yes. For example, here's a commentary, published in 2012 by Xinhua, arguing that the time was ripe to reform the "reeducation through labor" system http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2012-10-12/152725346359.shtml http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2012-10-12/152725346359.shtml (in Chinese, of course) The reform did happen, replacing e.g. labor camps for drug addicts by forced detox camps, but those were mostly the same, still using hard labor as their main method to "rehabilitate" addicts. So not much changed in practice. https://madeinchinajournal.com/2019/10/25/punish-and-cure%ef%bb%bf-forced-detox-camps-reeducation-through-labour-and-the-contradictions-of-chinas-war-on-drugs/ https://madeinchinajournal.com/2019/10/25/punish-and-cure%ef... (this one is in English) You may wonder why you haven't heard about this before. The answer is, I think, that most groups subjected to "reeducation through labor" are not organized and scarcely have any international contacts, so they have a hard time getting mainstream international media to report on them.
al3xandre 6y ago
If I was holding Jack Ma in captivity, I would definitely ask him to do this just for the benefits of doing insider trading on his appearances
- coldtea 6y ago
  If you had the power to hold Jack Ma in captivity, you'd have 1000 other ways to do insider trading, or even bigger access to the market...
  - TameAntelope 6y ago
    Anyone with a gun can hold anyone else, you don't need to be "powerful".
    - coldtea 6y ago
      If the "anyone else" is a billionaire, then, yes, you do, even to get access to them to point the gun, bypass the guards, abduct them, and keep them. And we're talking about state-level actors here doing the holding, not some random nobody with a gun. Those don't have any need for "insider trading".
      - TameAntelope 6y ago
        You're talking about state-level actors, not me. My point is that it doesn't have to be the Chinese government (though it probably is, if he's being held and isn't just in hiding).
    - xdavidliu 6y ago
      This is certainly not true if the "anyone else" is Jack Ma. If I gave you gun, and asked you to "hold" Jeff Bezos, you would certainly not be able to do it.
      - TameAntelope 6y ago
        Where am I? Where is Bezos? What are the additional hypothetical details of this scenario? Do I know how to use a gun in this scenario (I do not IRL)? I've only met one billionaire, but he was definitely not guarded by anyone, and had I the inclination, skills, and firepower, I could have easily taken him at gunpoint. I don't accept the notion that Jack Ma is guarded 100% of the time, that's movie fiction.
gavanwilhite 6y ago
Pro-CCP crew out in force tonight!
- dang 6y ago
  Comments like this break the site guidelines. Please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 6y ago
All: this thread quickly degenerated into a hellish flamewar. Please don't post nationalistic flamewar comments to HN, and do not post cheap internet insinuations about astroturfing, brigading, shilling, spying, foreign agents and communist party operatives. If you're worried about abuse, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. You're not welcome to fill HN threads with fervid imaginations about commenters who have different views than you. HN is a big place and that's the very simple explanation for why not everyone agrees. I've posted about this many times, both about astroturfing in general and China-related topics in particular: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=astroturf%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20chin&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... There have been ugly mob behaviors on this site in the past, which have hounded people out of the community. Is that who you want to be? who we want to be? No it is not. Yet it happens all too easily, and the people doing it don't even realize that they're doing it—they just think they're righteously defending truth or freedom or the home team. If you don't want to be that way, then err on the side of respect, benefit of the doubt, and not jumping to predetermined conclusions. (If you do want to be that way, please find some other site to post to.) We ban accounts that break these rules, so please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended. It has a very specific intended spirit and most of the people who've posted in this thread so far have been breaking it.
vinni2 6y ago
“he spoke to a group of teachers by video” How can we be sure it’s not a deepfake? I would have been more confident if he met them in person.
- vaxman 6y ago
  On Tuesday morning's broadcast (after the long holiday here in America), The "Money Honey" (Maria Bartiromo) expressed genuine concern that Ma was being "re-educated" by the Chinese Communist Party, though she did so in the context of a clip showing a popular talk-show personality (Katie Couric) suggesting that [the 74+ million] Americans who supported the current president should be "re-educated" (that is, subjected to "brain washing" to "clean" them of their undesirable thoughts). I join all of Wall Street in hoping that Ma is okay and his creative spirit continues --maybe we can get him back to Los Angeles (where he spent much time prior to launching his Chinese initiatives). [[For those outside of FinTech: Bartiromo is perhaps the most well connected financial reporter in the world and the first lady to report from the floor of the NYSE. She is a large part of what made FNN/CNBC what it is today before moving on to larger digs on FBN and has enough clout to launch her own financial network anytime she chooses.]]
sradman 6y ago
> Alibaba’s Hong Kong-listed shares jumped to finish 8.5% higher on the news Together with the geopolitics surrounding the COVID-19 pandemic, the public disappearance [1] of Jack Ma may turn out to be a key turning point for the modern Chinese state. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma#Public_disappearance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma#Public_disappearance
karmasimida 6y ago
So HN is now the hot bed for aspiring conspiracists? If applying Occam's Razor, maybe the most likely guess is ... he is not jailed?
- danpalmer 6y ago
  One could also apply this the other way around – when the "disappearance" started getting news coverage, why not just pop up to say hi? Did he really miss all that news coverage about his own disappearance? Occam's razor might suggest there's a reason why he didn't. My guess, applying this both ways, is that he's been ill or having some treatment or been in hospital, and that perhaps if it was bad, the calculation came out that disappearance rumours were better than "Jack Ma on his death bed" stories.
dustinmoris 6y ago
I agree with dang's comment re nationalistic flamewar comments, but then I wonder why is this news article even allowed to appear on HN front page for so long and not being flagged by the admins? There is no substance in this news report which is interesting beyond the usual nationalistic flame wars and conspiracy theories or have I missed something?
- Out_of_Characte 6y ago
  If it wasn't for the 'nationalistic flamewar' comments this article would still be a classic HN link; news over a buisiness leader that started the biggest IPO and then regulatory influence came along. regardless of where you fall on the debate, I think we're all interested and are going to follow Jack Ma's next steps.
NumberCruncher 6y ago
> In the 50-second video, Ma, wearing a navy pullover, spoke from a room with grey walls, a large painting and floral arrangements. It was not clear where the room was. [...] Alibaba’s Hong Kong-listed shares jumped to finish 8.5% higher on the news... I am pretty sure all sane people knowing that this video is going online had hold a huge long position on Alibaba shares.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  Just knowing with certainty that Jack Ma is alive would have been enough to make a big options play.
mail2merge 6y ago
This is good https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843617 thank you dang Maybe Ma was just trying to stay out of the limelight[0] until the investigation of Ant Financial settled down a bit. He also owns SCMP[1], which has a mix of supportive and critical articles on the central government. Assuming he wanted to throw some pressure, in the mild form of (probably mostly disregarded) external censure back on the investigation, he may have been passive aggressively refusing to show his face. Perhaps to sow suspicion he'd been mysteriously detained in order to draw (Western) media scrutiny, and the "inevitable" torrent of China-critical speculation that invites. Of course, it could also be an Elon Musk-style stock manipulation play, but I think he's more motivated by the passions than pure financials. Speculation is fun, but it's possible this is apophenia. [0]no pun intended, he does like to dress up in camp drag and sing, if you don't believe, search for the videos, it's pretty funny for an (ex) CEO to do this [1]this article doesn't have much more than the Reuters link, but does have a couple of videos https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3118454/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-delivers-video-speech-chinas-rural-teachers https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3118454/alibaba-f...
m3kw9 6y ago
Was his face bruised?
BlasDeLezo 6y ago
Well, he can't complaint
throwawaymanbot 6y ago
He appears = 2 more months of winter.

318 points by late 6y ago

50 seconds of prerecorded speech. yeah, okay China. Sure.

I would not be impressed. After reading this, everything is possible: https://www.odditycentral.com/news/chinas-rich-can-hire-body-doubles-to-serve-their-prison-time.html https://www.odditycentral.com/news/chinas-rich-can-hire-body...

dmix 6y ago
This isn't some low tier criminal case. China has done this before to other 'elites'. So did Saudi Arabia... this isn't showing up for a prison sentence.
Saul_C 6y ago
This is not true.

yonisto 6y ago

Now I need to be convinced it is not a deepfake

deepstack 6y ago
yeah it is legit concern with the current situation in the world.
- deepstack 6y ago
  Maybe a live zoom call with be good.
m463 6y ago
Sassy Justice to investigate.
anothernewdude 6y ago
Yeah, his face looks too small in the video, lol.
- tylergetsay 6y ago
  Could just be the camera lens but side by side photos it looks like they cropped the face in
dan-robertson 6y ago
I’m inclined to think no. If deepfakes weren’t a thing then there would be no need to fake something like this so I don’t think there’s be much reason to fake it now. Seems easier to just do the real thing. I think the whole point of the messaging is to make it obvious what’s happened without explicitly saying it and a deepfake doesn’t help with that. If they had done something worse they would have done it deliberately and would want to prove it. Kind of like when the Russians assassinate some dissident and go on their news to say “we absolutely deny the allegations that so and so was assassinated but I guess it just shows what happens when you are a traitor”
growt 6y ago
Maybe at some point we'll invent a new greeting (like waving your fingers before your face) to prove we're really the person on the screen.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  No reason you can't "deepfake" that too. IMO, in the arms race of fakes vs detection technology, the fakes will inevitably win. Eventually, you won't be able to tell if content is fake at all. You'll just have to decide if you can trust the source or not.

sebmellen 6y ago

> In the 50-second video, Ma, dressed in a navy pullover, spoke directly to the camera from a room with grey marble walls and a striped carpet. It was not clear from the video or the Tianmu News article where he was speaking from. Uh, resurfacing from a fancy prison cell, perhaps? Can anyone find the video? EDIT: Here's the raw video: https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1351751456827719681/video/1 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196.... If you watch his eye movements, it looks like he's reading from a script.

nwotnagrom 6y ago
Check this link out. Its the video from the Global Times Twitter Feed. https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3118454/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-delivers-video-speech-chinas-rural-teachers https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3118454/alibaba-f...
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Thank you for that. The direct link to the tweet is https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1351751456827719681/video/1 https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/13517514568277196.... That does appear to be the best quality video available. Looks like it could be some form of house arrest.
  - cheweh 6y ago
    The video at https://tech.ifeng.com/c/83BS98wwWV9 https://tech.ifeng.com/c/83BS98wwWV9 is higher quality.
echelon 6y ago
This regime is no joke. We need to offer Hong Kong and Chinese citizens a fast and easy path to citizenship in the West. If we do not brain drain China, rehabilitate our manufacturing capability, and prevent the CCP's rise to global dominance, we'll all have our liberties threatened. It could start with an offer to Jack Ma. Offer for him to move to SF or Miami. Watch for the "ha, ha, no thanks", but see the impact it has on Chinese citizens. They're not stupid, and they know what's going on. Edit: 1. Brain drain. Adopt China's best, brightest, and most creative. 2. Culture war. Tell Disney it's time to stop being cozy and make a "Chernobyl" style film about Tiananmen, Uyghurs, Tibetans, et al. 3. Build up our global manufacture. Vietnam, India, Mexico, Africa, South America. 4. Build capacity domestically, especially for strategic needs. Build lots of factories on the border. Jobs programs. But also allow immigrant workers and provide a path to citizenship. 5. Commit to our strong allies in a trade pact. Europe, Japan, Korea... We can route out this evil. But we have to work hard. This is an existential crisis. The US and its allies should all be on board with this plan and commit to doing similarly.

duxup 6y ago

If Ma wanted to reappear and reassure people, not sure this would be his first choice, method, etc. It seems weirder to just pop up like this like nothing has been going on.

dirtyid 6y ago
It's part of Jack Ma Foundation's annual Rural Educators Award. A few more pictures: https://tech.ifeng.com/c/83BS98wwWV9 https://tech.ifeng.com/c/83BS98wwWV9 Here's one from 2020. http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-01/07/c_138685262.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-01/07/c_138685262.htm Old UN article. https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2016/08/jack-ma-quality-rural-education-key-for-china/ https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2016/08/jack-...
- duxup 6y ago
  The article mentions that.
  - dirtyid 6y ago
    Then it shouldn't be that weird, Ma overstepped with his speech and is carefully negotiating the minefield he's currently in. Alibaba stock rebounded ~5% since his showing. He'll slowly work his way back into public life as is customary for nature of his infraction. If CCP wanted to disappear him long term, there'd be predictable and fraud/corruption charges already laid.
    - duxup 6y ago
      The situation is weird regardless of the existence of a charity.
      - LegitShady 6y ago
        The situation is normal for totalitarianism.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

So he only had one public event scheduled between late October and now? If he suddenly ended up in custody, you'd think he would have had more events set up then canceled.

oars 6y ago

I would love to see Facebook and Amazon researchers join forces and try to figure out whether this is a deepfake or not. https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/machine-learning/facebook-uses-amazon-ec2-to-evaluate-the-deepfake-detection-challenge/ https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/machine-learning/facebook-uses-...

paxys 6y ago
It doesn't have to be a deepfake. It isn't hard to compel someone in captivity to record a 50 second video.
- angry-tempest 6y ago
  At that point, why not get an actor and use a ton of make up to cover the imperfections?
themodelplumber 6y ago
During the video he keeps blinking 'e' in morse code. If real, he could be trying to communicate that he's hungry? 饿 :-)

guerrilla 6y ago

Disappointingly paranoid comments jumping to conclusions here. It's equally possible that Ma's disappearance is self-imposed after making an out of character speech that was not well received by investors and regulators alike. We don't know either way at this point. To quote Leo Lewis of the FT: "His miscalculation now looks spectacular, even by his astral standards of showmanship." [1] 1. https://www.ft.com/content/b3a94f55-5e44-417f-a869-a542d0527fe7 https://www.ft.com/content/b3a94f55-5e44-417f-a869-a542d0527...

echelon 6y ago
Total bullshit. This is the CCP stepping on this man's throat.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  It's certainly possible but the fact is that there's no evidence or indication one way or the other at this point.
  - netsharc 6y ago
    Lately the close-mindedness in HN has become amazing... many here seems to be a China expert, and their expertise says "I know what it is, it's an evil regime!".
    - slumpt_ 6y ago
      Given their treatment of Uighurs, yes - there is an element of evil. It’s not as if the governments of the world are immune to this - the US has been involved in a long history of heinous acts and China is no different.
      - netsharc 6y ago
        Yes, they're running terrible concentration camps.. but for some HNer to be able to say "I can see from this video that Jack Ma was imprisoned and is being forced by the CCP to do this"? Great job being an expert! How about some political nuance? Maybe they wouldn't dare just mess with a billionaire who was well respected just a few months ago? Well, maybe they do dare, I don't know, I'm not an expert in Chinese politics. But some commenters here seem to take one little thing they know and extrapolate it to absolute knowledge of how that government works in all aspects.

FooBarWidget 6y ago

In the last Hacker News thread, people were so sure that the government jailed him for criticizing the party. Even though there was no evidence of such, people just assumed it MUST be true because the CCP MUST be evil. And before Jack Ma "disappeared", people were worried about Jack Ma and Ant Group being a national security threat, because of his ties with CCP. Because "CCP evil". No matter the facts, people just conveniently change their interpretation to shoehorn everything in a nonsensical "see, CCP is evil" narrative. I think it's time to accept that most people have a SERIOUSLY deranged and inaccurate view of China, and that things in China are far more complex and nuanced than people give it credit for. I say this as someone who's born in China, and have a Chinese wife, and family in China. Maybe there's an alternative point of view than "CCP is evil" that is at least just as valid. So it turns out he was just laying low after all. Yes his comments were not appreciated, but that doesn't mean they jail anyone for the slightest criticism. The reason why his comments upset people is because China, after having experienced a huge boom in material wealth in the 2000s, which accompanied mass government corruption and increase in inequality, China is now in a phase with more focus on equality and sharing the wealth. Jack's criticism hit a nerve because it came over as a rich man trying to change society for his own benefit, rather than lifting society with him. See Cyrus Janssen's blog post about this: https://cyrusjanssen.substack.com/p/trump-free-speech-and-where-is-jack https://cyrusjanssen.substack.com/p/trump-free-speech-and-wh... Cyrus is an expat who has worked in China for 12 years. Does China have problems? Of course it does. But that doesn't mean we need to villify it at every turn, and interpret everything in the worst possible manner in the absence of evidence. When the west better understands China, and when the west and China come together, the whole world wins.

throwaway88098 6y ago
This is the best answer I've seen. HN however is not a place for unpopular (and true) insights. It'll be downvoted to oblivion.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  I know. But I'm way past the point of being scared of that, or even caring. As a Chinese person I was scared of being lynched by the mob for speaking up (ironic isn't it, this is the so-called "free society" but apparently it only applies when you agree with the mob), but now I just think the truth must come out, and someone must push back against this insane, evidence-free anti-China hysteria. Notice that I'm not even saying "CCP good". I just say "it's nuanced and complex, there are alternative points of view". Which is what most things in reality are. But when it comes to China, people will only allow simplifiying it to a cartoon villain.

tsjq 6y ago

"CCP allows / forces Jack Ma to publish a video" , would be closer to truth .

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ConcreteGidget 6y ago

Does anyone have any book recommendations for non-chinese people to understand CCP power structures? I'm completely lost in all of this Jack Ma stuff.

wllchng 6y ago
The Party: The Secret World of China's Communist Rulers (2012)
- loceng 6y ago
  I wonder if the 2021 version would have much different; were there known "re-education" camps then, etc?
  - pototo666 6y ago
    It is definitely different. Back in 2012 the party is controled by a group of elder guys, though there is someone at the top. Now it is dictated by Xi, who has already changed many things, like Chairman should only serve two terms. Luckily, he has no son.
  - yorwba 6y ago
    Yes. For example, here's a commentary, published in 2012 by Xinhua, arguing that the time was ripe to reform the "reeducation through labor" system http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2012-10-12/152725346359.shtml http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2012-10-12/152725346359.shtml (in Chinese, of course) The reform did happen, replacing e.g. labor camps for drug addicts by forced detox camps, but those were mostly the same, still using hard labor as their main method to "rehabilitate" addicts. So not much changed in practice. https://madeinchinajournal.com/2019/10/25/punish-and-cure%ef%bb%bf-forced-detox-camps-reeducation-through-labour-and-the-contradictions-of-chinas-war-on-drugs/ https://madeinchinajournal.com/2019/10/25/punish-and-cure%ef... (this one is in English) You may wonder why you haven't heard about this before. The answer is, I think, that most groups subjected to "reeducation through labor" are not organized and scarcely have any international contacts, so they have a hard time getting mainstream international media to report on them.

al3xandre 6y ago

If I was holding Jack Ma in captivity, I would definitely ask him to do this just for the benefits of doing insider trading on his appearances

coldtea 6y ago
If you had the power to hold Jack Ma in captivity, you'd have 1000 other ways to do insider trading, or even bigger access to the market...
- TameAntelope 6y ago
  Anyone with a gun can hold anyone else, you don't need to be "powerful".
  - coldtea 6y ago
    If the "anyone else" is a billionaire, then, yes, you do, even to get access to them to point the gun, bypass the guards, abduct them, and keep them. And we're talking about state-level actors here doing the holding, not some random nobody with a gun. Those don't have any need for "insider trading".
    - TameAntelope 6y ago
      You're talking about state-level actors, not me. My point is that it doesn't have to be the Chinese government (though it probably is, if he's being held and isn't just in hiding).
  - xdavidliu 6y ago
    This is certainly not true if the "anyone else" is Jack Ma. If I gave you gun, and asked you to "hold" Jeff Bezos, you would certainly not be able to do it.
    - TameAntelope 6y ago
      Where am I? Where is Bezos? What are the additional hypothetical details of this scenario? Do I know how to use a gun in this scenario (I do not IRL)? I've only met one billionaire, but he was definitely not guarded by anyone, and had I the inclination, skills, and firepower, I could have easily taken him at gunpoint. I don't accept the notion that Jack Ma is guarded 100% of the time, that's movie fiction.

gavanwilhite 6y ago

Pro-CCP crew out in force tonight!

dang 6y ago
Comments like this break the site guidelines. Please don't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dang 6y ago

All: this thread quickly degenerated into a hellish flamewar. Please don't post nationalistic flamewar comments to HN, and do not post cheap internet insinuations about astroturfing, brigading, shilling, spying, foreign agents and communist party operatives. If you're worried about abuse, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. You're not welcome to fill HN threads with fervid imaginations about commenters who have different views than you. HN is a big place and that's the very simple explanation for why not everyone agrees. I've posted about this many times, both about astroturfing in general and China-related topics in particular: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=astroturf%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20chin&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... There have been ugly mob behaviors on this site in the past, which have hounded people out of the community. Is that who you want to be? who we want to be? No it is not. Yet it happens all too easily, and the people doing it don't even realize that they're doing it—they just think they're righteously defending truth or freedom or the home team. If you don't want to be that way, then err on the side of respect, benefit of the doubt, and not jumping to predetermined conclusions. (If you do want to be that way, please find some other site to post to.) We ban accounts that break these rules, so please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and use HN as intended. It has a very specific intended spirit and most of the people who've posted in this thread so far have been breaking it.

vinni2 6y ago

“he spoke to a group of teachers by video” How can we be sure it’s not a deepfake? I would have been more confident if he met them in person.

vaxman 6y ago
On Tuesday morning's broadcast (after the long holiday here in America), The "Money Honey" (Maria Bartiromo) expressed genuine concern that Ma was being "re-educated" by the Chinese Communist Party, though she did so in the context of a clip showing a popular talk-show personality (Katie Couric) suggesting that [the 74+ million] Americans who supported the current president should be "re-educated" (that is, subjected to "brain washing" to "clean" them of their undesirable thoughts). I join all of Wall Street in hoping that Ma is okay and his creative spirit continues --maybe we can get him back to Los Angeles (where he spent much time prior to launching his Chinese initiatives). [[For those outside of FinTech: Bartiromo is perhaps the most well connected financial reporter in the world and the first lady to report from the floor of the NYSE. She is a large part of what made FNN/CNBC what it is today before moving on to larger digs on FBN and has enough clout to launch her own financial network anytime she chooses.]]

sradman 6y ago

> Alibaba’s Hong Kong-listed shares jumped to finish 8.5% higher on the news Together with the geopolitics surrounding the COVID-19 pandemic, the public disappearance [1] of Jack Ma may turn out to be a key turning point for the modern Chinese state. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma#Public_disappearance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma#Public_disappearance

karmasimida 6y ago

So HN is now the hot bed for aspiring conspiracists? If applying Occam's Razor, maybe the most likely guess is ... he is not jailed?

danpalmer 6y ago
One could also apply this the other way around – when the "disappearance" started getting news coverage, why not just pop up to say hi? Did he really miss all that news coverage about his own disappearance? Occam's razor might suggest there's a reason why he didn't. My guess, applying this both ways, is that he's been ill or having some treatment or been in hospital, and that perhaps if it was bad, the calculation came out that disappearance rumours were better than "Jack Ma on his death bed" stories.

dustinmoris 6y ago

I agree with dang's comment re nationalistic flamewar comments, but then I wonder why is this news article even allowed to appear on HN front page for so long and not being flagged by the admins? There is no substance in this news report which is interesting beyond the usual nationalistic flame wars and conspiracy theories or have I missed something?

Out_of_Characte 6y ago
If it wasn't for the 'nationalistic flamewar' comments this article would still be a classic HN link; news over a buisiness leader that started the biggest IPO and then regulatory influence came along. regardless of where you fall on the debate, I think we're all interested and are going to follow Jack Ma's next steps.

NumberCruncher 6y ago

> In the 50-second video, Ma, wearing a navy pullover, spoke from a room with grey walls, a large painting and floral arrangements. It was not clear where the room was. [...] Alibaba’s Hong Kong-listed shares jumped to finish 8.5% higher on the news... I am pretty sure all sane people knowing that this video is going online had hold a huge long position on Alibaba shares.

tachyonbeam 6y ago
Just knowing with certainty that Jack Ma is alive would have been enough to make a big options play.

mail2merge 6y ago

This is good https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843617 thank you dang Maybe Ma was just trying to stay out of the limelight[0] until the investigation of Ant Financial settled down a bit. He also owns SCMP[1], which has a mix of supportive and critical articles on the central government. Assuming he wanted to throw some pressure, in the mild form of (probably mostly disregarded) external censure back on the investigation, he may have been passive aggressively refusing to show his face. Perhaps to sow suspicion he'd been mysteriously detained in order to draw (Western) media scrutiny, and the "inevitable" torrent of China-critical speculation that invites. Of course, it could also be an Elon Musk-style stock manipulation play, but I think he's more motivated by the passions than pure financials. Speculation is fun, but it's possible this is apophenia. [0]no pun intended, he does like to dress up in camp drag and sing, if you don't believe, search for the videos, it's pretty funny for an (ex) CEO to do this [1]this article doesn't have much more than the Reuters link, but does have a couple of videos https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3118454/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-delivers-video-speech-chinas-rural-teachers https://www.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3118454/alibaba-f...

m3kw9 6y ago

Was his face bruised?

BlasDeLezo 6y ago

Well, he can't complaint

throwawaymanbot 6y ago

He appears = 2 more months of winter.