4 ms·

The fourth bullet point is also a non-starter. I'm sorry, but it's not, nor was it ever, good advice for programmers to write code both at work and at home. We

by sli 6y ago

The fourth bullet point is also a non-starter. I'm sorry, but it's not, nor was it ever, good advice for programmers to write code both at work and at home. We don't expect this of other careers, we shouldn't expect it of developers, either. Feel free to write code after work if you like, but to consider it anywhere close to a requirement, even to just help with burnout, is perpetuating a rather toxic view of this particular industry's workers.

progforlyfe 6y ago
I took item 4 to mean "at work" -- find something enjoyable to work on at work / while actually working... Which definitely isn't always an option depending on your job.
zarq 6y ago
I agree to what you're saying, but the 4th bullet should not mean this. Find joy in what you're doing is independent advice. I would add to this that outside of work, you should also look for something that gives you joy. Something that is not coding would be preferred.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  It's not really your place to tell people what hobbies are OK to enjoy.
gameman144 6y ago
That one seems like pretty common advice even for non-software fields. The work you love doesn't have to be software, too, but you should be working on something you enjoy (or if you get fulfillment from your job, that's just a bonus!)
thirteenfingers 6y ago
Who said it had to be writing code? If finding joy in work is unrealistic, then take up a musical instrument, build a model railroad, write short stories, or something totally unrelated. (I've been a full-time code monkey by day and musician by night for going on six years, and I'm still finding other hobbies to dabble in.)
- bobthepanda 6y ago
  "Work on" might be bad verbiage then, particularly if we are talking about people who the term "work" might just make anxious. "Find a hobby" would be a better phrasing.
austincheney 6y ago
> We don't expect this of other careers That is so not true. When are doctors supposed to perform research or their required continuing education? When seeing clients? No. It’s on their own time.
- johnkpaul 6y ago
  Continual Medical Education (CMEs) are definitely during normal work days. They're also often at fancy destinations with hotels and mai tais. My father and other family have done them for years. They never had to take vacation days.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  Doctors have a terrible working schedule and I'm not jealous of it one bit, but this is really not true. They may be on-call sometimes but generally if they're off they are not working or training. They read UpToDate on work time.
cloverich 6y ago
Two counter points. First, it depends on the personality. If you don't find programming on its own gratifying and enjoyable, there's no need to force it on the side. But second, if you do enjoy programming, are burnt out, and have never tried a side project, give it an honest shot. It is so utterly counter-intuitive that programming on the side can cure your burn out from programming as a job, but time and again that has been my experience. I don't quite understand how it has this effect on me (and others), but it does. A few hours or a weekend of coding on a side project, and I come back to work like I've just been on vacation, sometimes even struggling to remember just what it was that was bothering me so much last week.
chrshawkes 6y ago
Your risk is being left behind. It's unfortunate but true.
schwartzworld 6y ago
A lot of us get into programming because we enjoy it, but the realities of work often mean doing boring repetitive tasks. OP isn't suggesting that it's mandatory, just a way to keep from feeling burnt out, and I agree. Additionally, if you're smart that time can wind up being compensated later. I wrote JavaScript on my own for 3.5 years before I started doing it professionally, and while I didn't get paid, it allowed me to eventually double my income, so I consider it a great investment. > We don't expect this of other careers, Sure we do. Doctors may be expected to read medical journals or keep up on the latest research, for example.
- jghn 6y ago
  Indeed doctors do, at least in the US although I don’t know how it works internationally. They’re called CMEs (continuing medical education) and they need to earn a certain number of hours per year
  - schwartzworld 6y ago
    CMEs are one thing, but many good doctors keep up to date on medical advances in their field regardless.
- arvinsim 6y ago
  > Additionally, if you're smart that time can wind up being compensated later. I wrote JavaScript on my own for 3.5 years before I started doing it professionally, and while I didn't get paid, it allowed me to eventually double my income, so I consider it a great investment. Great if you are young and have no commitments. Not so great if you are old and have many commitments. Or are we expecting programmers to program after work even during their later years?
  - schwartzworld 6y ago
    > Or are we expecting programmers to program after work even during their later years? Look, OP suggested a strategy for not getting burnt out that works for them, and I'm just saying what works for me. You are the one who is turning this into some sort of "expectation". If you don't want to code outside of work, and don't see value in it, don't do it. Nobody gives a rats ass.
marcosdumay 6y ago
Programing at work and programing as a hobby are very different activities. One should never consider it a requirement, but it's not a recipe for certain burn-out either. (But yeah, if you are doing it because it's a requirement, then it's work and it will lead to burn-out.)

by sli 6y ago

progforlyfe 6y ago

I took item 4 to mean "at work" -- find something enjoyable to work on at work / while actually working... Which definitely isn't always an option depending on your job.

zarq 6y ago

I agree to what you're saying, but the 4th bullet should not mean this. Find joy in what you're doing is independent advice. I would add to this that outside of work, you should also look for something that gives you joy. Something that is not coding would be preferred.

alisonkisk 6y ago
It's not really your place to tell people what hobbies are OK to enjoy.

gameman144 6y ago

That one seems like pretty common advice even for non-software fields. The work you love doesn't have to be software, too, but you should be working on something you enjoy (or if you get fulfillment from your job, that's just a bonus!)

thirteenfingers 6y ago

Who said it had to be writing code? If finding joy in work is unrealistic, then take up a musical instrument, build a model railroad, write short stories, or something totally unrelated. (I've been a full-time code monkey by day and musician by night for going on six years, and I'm still finding other hobbies to dabble in.)

bobthepanda 6y ago
"Work on" might be bad verbiage then, particularly if we are talking about people who the term "work" might just make anxious. "Find a hobby" would be a better phrasing.

austincheney 6y ago

> We don't expect this of other careers That is so not true. When are doctors supposed to perform research or their required continuing education? When seeing clients? No. It’s on their own time.

johnkpaul 6y ago
Continual Medical Education (CMEs) are definitely during normal work days. They're also often at fancy destinations with hotels and mai tais. My father and other family have done them for years. They never had to take vacation days.
jokethrowaway 6y ago
Doctors have a terrible working schedule and I'm not jealous of it one bit, but this is really not true. They may be on-call sometimes but generally if they're off they are not working or training. They read UpToDate on work time.

cloverich 6y ago

Two counter points. First, it depends on the personality. If you don't find programming on its own gratifying and enjoyable, there's no need to force it on the side. But second, if you do enjoy programming, are burnt out, and have never tried a side project, give it an honest shot. It is so utterly counter-intuitive that programming on the side can cure your burn out from programming as a job, but time and again that has been my experience. I don't quite understand how it has this effect on me (and others), but it does. A few hours or a weekend of coding on a side project, and I come back to work like I've just been on vacation, sometimes even struggling to remember just what it was that was bothering me so much last week.

chrshawkes 6y ago

Your risk is being left behind. It's unfortunate but true.

schwartzworld 6y ago

A lot of us get into programming because we enjoy it, but the realities of work often mean doing boring repetitive tasks. OP isn't suggesting that it's mandatory, just a way to keep from feeling burnt out, and I agree. Additionally, if you're smart that time can wind up being compensated later. I wrote JavaScript on my own for 3.5 years before I started doing it professionally, and while I didn't get paid, it allowed me to eventually double my income, so I consider it a great investment. > We don't expect this of other careers, Sure we do. Doctors may be expected to read medical journals or keep up on the latest research, for example.

jghn 6y ago
Indeed doctors do, at least in the US although I don’t know how it works internationally. They’re called CMEs (continuing medical education) and they need to earn a certain number of hours per year
- schwartzworld 6y ago
  CMEs are one thing, but many good doctors keep up to date on medical advances in their field regardless.
arvinsim 6y ago
> Additionally, if you're smart that time can wind up being compensated later. I wrote JavaScript on my own for 3.5 years before I started doing it professionally, and while I didn't get paid, it allowed me to eventually double my income, so I consider it a great investment. Great if you are young and have no commitments. Not so great if you are old and have many commitments. Or are we expecting programmers to program after work even during their later years?
- schwartzworld 6y ago
  > Or are we expecting programmers to program after work even during their later years? Look, OP suggested a strategy for not getting burnt out that works for them, and I'm just saying what works for me. You are the one who is turning this into some sort of "expectation". If you don't want to code outside of work, and don't see value in it, don't do it. Nobody gives a rats ass.

marcosdumay 6y ago

Programing at work and programing as a hobby are very different activities. One should never consider it a requirement, but it's not a recipe for certain burn-out either. (But yeah, if you are doing it because it's a requirement, then it's work and it will lead to burn-out.)