5 ms·

What’s the difference between what Amazon does with Elasticsearch vs what someone like Redhat does with the Linux kernel? Or what every hosting provider includi

by cactus2093 6y ago

What’s the difference between what Amazon does with Elasticsearch vs what someone like Redhat does with the Linux kernel? Or what every hosting provider including AWS does with the Linux kernel, sell access to a service that is running that software. I get that Elasticsearch wants to run their own company, but I really have no sympathy for their arguments here. They released open source software and now are mad that it is taking on a life of its own that they don’t 100% control. That’s the whole point of open source as far as I’m concerned, other people can do stuff you might not have expected with your code. Now they’re making it more closed going forward, which is fine and is certainly their right to do. But this argument is so bizarre, instead of saying that we tried to do this open source but unfortunately it makes it too difficult for us as a business so we’re closing things off, they’re trying to spin it as they are the true, good defenders of open source fighting against the forces of evil by closing off their licensing further.

jamra 6y ago
Did you read the blog post? They are mad about trademark violation and an allegation that their commercial code has been ripped off by Amazon through a third party. They have Elasticsearch trademarked and you can't use their name with your name on it. In their mind, it is a violation.
- cactus2093 6y ago
  Yes but how does changing their license affect a trademark? If they are legally in the right and this is a violation of their trademark they should win their lawsuit about it regardless. Also my initial question was not purely rhetorical, I would assume "Linux" is also trademarked so I'm wondering what is the difference there and why Redhat selling RHEL has not been the same problem.
  - Omie6541 6y ago
    I think it's not the same problem because Red Hat contributes heavily back to Linux kernel
  - hvis 6y ago
    Because Linus has no problems with Red Hat? And because Red Hat employs a lot of the key contributors to the Linux kernel? Also: https://www.infoworld.com/article/2671387/linus-gets-tough-on-linux-trademark.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/2671387/linus-gets-tough-o...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - cactus2093 6y ago
      I don't think Redhat could have built their whole business on the just the implied understanding that Linus is cool with it. I'm more talking about the trademark issue, did they legally get the right to use the Linux trademark in some way that Amazon Elasticsearch didn't? Just curious if there is any substance to what Elastic is claiming here or if it's purely a PR stunt. Edit: based on the Linux Foundation link in another comment, it seems they have a clear process for sublicensing the trademark. So I guess Elastic is claiming AWS just launched their ES service without their legal team ever having bothered looking into the trademark? That seems very strange for such a large company.
  - jrv 6y ago
    See https://www.linuxfoundation.org/the-linux-mark/ https://www.linuxfoundation.org/the-linux-mark/
  - richardwhiuk 6y ago
    I think they'll lose the trademark case.
BossingAround 6y ago
> What’s the difference between what Amazon does with Elasticsearch vs what someone like Redhat does with the Linux kernel? Red Hat is a top 2-4 contributor to the Linux kernel though, depending on what source (and year) you take a look (e.g. [1]). The big difference is that Amazon doesn't contribute back. The comparison seems misguided at best. [1] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-Git-Stats-EOY2019 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-Gi...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- thefreeman 6y ago
  The real problem that Elastic doesn't like is that amazon reimplements features as part of their core offering that ES tries to charge for. I'm sure they would have no problem contributing back but Elastic doesn't want these features to become part of the core offering.
  - anticristi 6y ago
    This sounds like the Docker Inc and Red Hat dance again. Red Hat wanted tighter integration with systemd, Docker Inc not. The debate ended with Red Hat doing: alias docker=podman
    - viraptor 6y ago
      One of the debates ended. But since it's not a complete replacement, or started some more debates.
    - dralley 6y ago
      That's not the only reason, docker has a daemon running as root and requires "sudo", podman does not.
      - quotemstr 6y ago
        Rootless docker exists nowadays FWIW
anticristi 6y ago
This. Elastic produced a product that is popular because it's open source. (The closed source version of ES is called Splunk or DataDog.) Now they are pissed off that they can't profit from its popularity. I feel their sadness, but I don't think Amazon is the problem. Even before Amazon many non-Elastic hosted ES offers appeared (logz.io ?). I would hate to be in their shoes, but it brings a valuable lesson to future entrepreneurs: Do fill the "unfair advantage" box in your business canvas.
- viraptor 6y ago
  > The closed source version of ES is called Splunk or DataDog. No, these are services which probably use some kind of search/indexing service in their implementation. They don't provide a database interface. The closed alternative would be something like Algolia or Azure Search.
- neop1x 6y ago
  But what if this openness is the thing made them more popular than closed solutions like Splunk?
fieldcny 6y ago
These are not comparable situations. In addition to redhat employing a large number of kernel contributors, ElasticSearch is a complete product the Linux kernel is just a piece of the overall redhat product. The kernel in and of itself is useless. Also redhat provides source rpms for every non-proprietary app/utility that makes up the redhat product. A more comparable situation would be redhat and centos, and to the point that Elastic is making, redhat is very protective of their trademarks with regards to the CentOs project, they have never stood for and would never stand for a situation like this.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
joe433343 6y ago
Exactly. I was confused why the Elasticsearch blog is ranting about Amazon when the actual issue is in Elasticsearch license change which makes the source code closed which was open source.

jamra 6y ago

Did you read the blog post? They are mad about trademark violation and an allegation that their commercial code has been ripped off by Amazon through a third party. They have Elasticsearch trademarked and you can't use their name with your name on it. In their mind, it is a violation.

cactus2093 6y ago
Yes but how does changing their license affect a trademark? If they are legally in the right and this is a violation of their trademark they should win their lawsuit about it regardless. Also my initial question was not purely rhetorical, I would assume "Linux" is also trademarked so I'm wondering what is the difference there and why Redhat selling RHEL has not been the same problem.
- Omie6541 6y ago
  I think it's not the same problem because Red Hat contributes heavily back to Linux kernel
- hvis 6y ago
  Because Linus has no problems with Red Hat? And because Red Hat employs a lot of the key contributors to the Linux kernel? Also: https://www.infoworld.com/article/2671387/linus-gets-tough-on-linux-trademark.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/2671387/linus-gets-tough-o...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - cactus2093 6y ago
    I don't think Redhat could have built their whole business on the just the implied understanding that Linus is cool with it. I'm more talking about the trademark issue, did they legally get the right to use the Linux trademark in some way that Amazon Elasticsearch didn't? Just curious if there is any substance to what Elastic is claiming here or if it's purely a PR stunt. Edit: based on the Linux Foundation link in another comment, it seems they have a clear process for sublicensing the trademark. So I guess Elastic is claiming AWS just launched their ES service without their legal team ever having bothered looking into the trademark? That seems very strange for such a large company.
- jrv 6y ago
  See https://www.linuxfoundation.org/the-linux-mark/ https://www.linuxfoundation.org/the-linux-mark/
- richardwhiuk 6y ago
  I think they'll lose the trademark case.

BossingAround 6y ago

> What’s the difference between what Amazon does with Elasticsearch vs what someone like Redhat does with the Linux kernel? Red Hat is a top 2-4 contributor to the Linux kernel though, depending on what source (and year) you take a look (e.g. [1]). The big difference is that Amazon doesn't contribute back. The comparison seems misguided at best. [1] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-Git-Stats-EOY2019 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-Gi...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
thefreeman 6y ago
The real problem that Elastic doesn't like is that amazon reimplements features as part of their core offering that ES tries to charge for. I'm sure they would have no problem contributing back but Elastic doesn't want these features to become part of the core offering.
- anticristi 6y ago
  This sounds like the Docker Inc and Red Hat dance again. Red Hat wanted tighter integration with systemd, Docker Inc not. The debate ended with Red Hat doing: alias docker=podman
  - viraptor 6y ago
    One of the debates ended. But since it's not a complete replacement, or started some more debates.
  - dralley 6y ago
    That's not the only reason, docker has a daemon running as root and requires "sudo", podman does not.
    - quotemstr 6y ago
      Rootless docker exists nowadays FWIW

anticristi 6y ago

This. Elastic produced a product that is popular because it's open source. (The closed source version of ES is called Splunk or DataDog.) Now they are pissed off that they can't profit from its popularity. I feel their sadness, but I don't think Amazon is the problem. Even before Amazon many non-Elastic hosted ES offers appeared (logz.io ?). I would hate to be in their shoes, but it brings a valuable lesson to future entrepreneurs: Do fill the "unfair advantage" box in your business canvas.

viraptor 6y ago
> The closed source version of ES is called Splunk or DataDog. No, these are services which probably use some kind of search/indexing service in their implementation. They don't provide a database interface. The closed alternative would be something like Algolia or Azure Search.
neop1x 6y ago
But what if this openness is the thing made them more popular than closed solutions like Splunk?

fieldcny 6y ago

These are not comparable situations. In addition to redhat employing a large number of kernel contributors, ElasticSearch is a complete product the Linux kernel is just a piece of the overall redhat product. The kernel in and of itself is useless. Also redhat provides source rpms for every non-proprietary app/utility that makes up the redhat product. A more comparable situation would be redhat and centos, and to the point that Elastic is making, redhat is very protective of their trademarks with regards to the CentOs project, they have never stood for and would never stand for a situation like this.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

joe433343 6y ago

Exactly. I was confused why the Elasticsearch blog is ranting about Amazon when the actual issue is in Elasticsearch license change which makes the source code closed which was open source.