7 ms·

I'm close to 60,000 words into my latest novel and I'm writing in Ulysses using Markdown. Novels, in particular, rarely need more than headings and occasional

I'm close to 60,000 words into my latest novel and I'm writing in Ulysses using Markdown. Novels, in particular, rarely need more than headings and occasional italics or boldface.

atmosx 6y ago
I would be interested to know why you choose "Ulysses" and not "Odysseus"? ps. I followed a conversation about James Joyce novel which was hinted that there is a difference between the two names and Joyce didn't pick "Ulysses" randomly. I'd like to know if you went through the same process. UPDATE: Ok, I mis-read the comment, I though the name of the Novel was Ulysses, apparently it is an app.
- jmkb 6y ago
  It's a writing-focused word processor for MacOS and iOS. https://ulysses.app/ https://ulysses.app/
  - atmosx 6y ago
    Thanks for pointing that out!
  - nbzso 6y ago
    Which moved to subscription model and lost me completely. After trying Scrivener, I realised that for my needs is overkill, moved to something that I know will not bite me in the future: Folder organisation plus Vim - Org mode. Adobe in their infinite greed ruined propriety software model for all. SaaS is pure hell.
chank 6y ago
That's the kind of need for text manipulation I would expect of a typical writer. Hence why bother with markdown at all (unless it's the only thing available). Rich text is a much cleaner solution for that. Markdown really shines when it comes to text that has to be formatted just so for web layout. e.g. tables, bullets, multi-headings and linking.
- vidarh 6y ago
  Because it's not a bother. It's pretty much just plain text. And having it as plain text means adding your own special annotations is easy. E.g. I'm writing my third novel in my own editor using Markdown, and key for me was that it was easy to write small little scripts to e.g. process front-matter with similar "@pov" tags etc. to let me trivially cross-reference things.
- globular-toast 6y ago
  Markdown is "rich text". What distinction are you trying to draw here?
  - chank 6y ago
    no it isn't.
    - oneeyedpigeon 6y ago
      It's not rtf, but it is rich text as opposed to plain text.
      - chank 6y ago
        The point I am getting at is that if an editor wants to use markdown in place of rtf, fine. But it should hide the syntax just like rtf editors do (unless you want to see it). No editor that supports markdown to date has been able to achieve the quality of editing that rtf editors already have. So in essence outside of markdowns original use case of web publishing, why bother using it?
        vidarh 6y ago
        Here is the grand total of formatting supported by RTF in use in my novels: * headers * italics * maybe 2-3 instances of *bold* through the entire text. I don't need any additional "quality of editing". Hiding the syntax is irrelevant because the needs are so limited. Hiding the user interface on the other hand, matters to me, because it's a distraction (to others it isn't). My editor color-codes the headers and the italics, and having it stand out matters far more to me than that it looks the way it will in the formatted book, because my draft looks nothing like the finished book will anyway. If you look at interviews with writers, you'll find a whole lot of obsession over the process, and things like how it feels to write with a pen vs. a typewriter vs. a word processor, and very, very little about what their drafts look like. It's far down the list of considerations you'll find novelists care about. Nobody cares what the drafts look like, because they are transient. In fact you'll find a whole lot of authors advocate avoiding going back and editing and arguing for things like dictaphones etc. to make going back harder or using tools that won't let scroll up in some cases to simulate the typewriter experience, and all kinds of similar obsessions with spending as little time as possible on formatting and what the manuscript looks like in preference of being able to just dump the first draft into text the fastest way possible (while other authors want writing the first draft to take longer on purpose - to some that is a reason for using pens or pencils). You mentioned Gaiman in another reply - someone who has talked at length about how since he wrote Stardust in a fountain pen he has come to enjoy being forced to rewrite his second draft entirely instead of being able to go back and forth and editing it since he switched to writing with pen on paper. I'm sure you can find novelists that want to see a beautifully formatted manuscript while writing it. They have tools they can use. But to suggest Markdown is some sort of big hindrance compared to some of the barriers novelists create for themselves on purpose doesn't pass the smell test for me.
em-bee 6y ago
how do you convert from markdown to standard manuscript format? starting to write in markdown or even plain text is fine, but once the first draft is submitted to the editor or sent to a publisher for consideration it usually needs to be a word or rtf document in standard manuscript format. once converted i am stuck using libreoffice to revise and edit the story. i found tools that convert from markdown to ODF (which i can then load and export as word) but i have not found any way to apply a standard manuscript style in the conversion process. without that i'd have to manually reformat the document each time i want to submit a new revision.
- jonnycomputer 6y ago
  I tried out and one issue I had was with indented paragraphs. I ended up using LibreWriter's regex search replace to remove all the extraneous newlines.
  - em-bee 6y ago
    can you describe the complete process you use to convert your documents?
    - jonnycomputer 6y ago
      I only gave it a try for a chapter or two just to get a feel for what might be involved. I first tried pandoc. This mostly worked, except for the indentation of paragraphs. I took care of that by setting up LibreOffice's paragraph indentation, and used LibreOffice's search replace to remove the (now) extraneous new lines. My recommendation is to grab a decently long markdown document and give it a try.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- em-bee 6y ago
  i found an answer to this question here: http://www.autodidacts.io/convert-markdown-to-standard-manuscript-format-odts-docs-and-pdfs-with-pandoc/ http://www.autodidacts.io/convert-markdown-to-standard-manus...
lelag 6y ago
I also use Ulysses and very happy with it (except for it being a subscription based product). The feature that I would miss the most by switching to novelWriter or another open source solution would be the following: - auto cloud sync across all devices (I can even write on my phone if I think of something while waiting for the bus) - print quality output in PDF and epub with a single click (and many available themes to choose from). - nice eye pleasing UI that put me in the right mood for writing - good integration with my third party writing assistance software (Antidote).
- jjkaczor 6y ago
  "auto cloud sync across all devices" hmmm - if it is an editor that handles text files, then myself, I would rely on one of the myriad of sync tools/platforms available, rather than have someone else's implementation
  - em-bee 6y ago
    syncthing is the tool i use for that now
  - lelag 6y ago
    True and it's actually possible to use any tools you want as it supports local directories of markdown files (I use git to version my writing) but the product does not target at a technical audience but writers in general and their cloud sync is pretty well implemented. I like their cloud sync for the ability to sync with ios devices without doing anything in particular.
- JulianMorrison 6y ago
  I use Ghostwriter, it's free. I write in a directory that is continuously synced to Dropbox. And I write in pandoc flavored markdown, so a single script can spit out compiled PDF or epub.
  - lelag 6y ago
    I've wanted to try it as it looks pretty slick but it's apparently "a [...] Markdown editor for Windows and Linux". Not much of an help if you are using macOS.
falcolas 6y ago
Funnily enough, a lot of the work I've interacted with has been in the Lit RPG genre - which needs a lot more, since they're often including tables of "character data", not to mention "system" fonts. It's surprisingly challenging to typeset and make it broadly readable across devices.
- ehutch79 6y ago
  As an avid LitRPG reader, i can tell you most authors need to scale their system WAY back. I like the crunchy parts, but at the end of the day story should take the focus, not 10 page long stat tables. Either that, or there's just enough crunch to slap a litrpg label on a bucket of cliche fantasy tropes.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    > most authors need to scale their system WAY back Oh, no doubt. I've seen entire chapters devoted to "character evolutions" and the associated spew of repetitive skills/character sheets. What I personally like is when there's a secondary resource (aka a wiki) which tracks changes to the various character sheets and skills over time. Perhaps this could be done within the novel by using appendices? Wouldn't help extensively with Patreon-based web novels, sadly. All that said, litrpg - not to mention software development books, cookbooks, etc - do still need these kinds of extended typesetting resources.
- wishinghand 6y ago
  I’m just getting into making RPGs and I was using Joplin. Switched to Zettlr for the linking and file folder == a project paradigm. What are you using? I was hoping to use the PHP based command line tool Ibis to convert to PDF but in order to auto-generate a table of contents I’d need to have way too much white space after each section. Ideally I could change the output formatting with a CSS file.

I'm close to 60,000 words into my latest novel and I'm writing in Ulysses using Markdown. Novels, in particular, rarely need more than headings and occasional italics or boldface.

atmosx 6y ago

I would be interested to know why you choose "Ulysses" and not "Odysseus"? ps. I followed a conversation about James Joyce novel which was hinted that there is a difference between the two names and Joyce didn't pick "Ulysses" randomly. I'd like to know if you went through the same process. UPDATE: Ok, I mis-read the comment, I though the name of the Novel was Ulysses, apparently it is an app.

jmkb 6y ago
It's a writing-focused word processor for MacOS and iOS. https://ulysses.app/ https://ulysses.app/
- atmosx 6y ago
  Thanks for pointing that out!
- nbzso 6y ago
  Which moved to subscription model and lost me completely. After trying Scrivener, I realised that for my needs is overkill, moved to something that I know will not bite me in the future: Folder organisation plus Vim - Org mode. Adobe in their infinite greed ruined propriety software model for all. SaaS is pure hell.

chank 6y ago

That's the kind of need for text manipulation I would expect of a typical writer. Hence why bother with markdown at all (unless it's the only thing available). Rich text is a much cleaner solution for that. Markdown really shines when it comes to text that has to be formatted just so for web layout. e.g. tables, bullets, multi-headings and linking.

vidarh 6y ago
Because it's not a bother. It's pretty much just plain text. And having it as plain text means adding your own special annotations is easy. E.g. I'm writing my third novel in my own editor using Markdown, and key for me was that it was easy to write small little scripts to e.g. process front-matter with similar "@pov" tags etc. to let me trivially cross-reference things.
globular-toast 6y ago
Markdown is "rich text". What distinction are you trying to draw here?
- chank 6y ago
  no it isn't.
  - oneeyedpigeon 6y ago
    It's not rtf, but it is rich text as opposed to plain text.
    - chank 6y ago
      The point I am getting at is that if an editor wants to use markdown in place of rtf, fine. But it should hide the syntax just like rtf editors do (unless you want to see it). No editor that supports markdown to date has been able to achieve the quality of editing that rtf editors already have. So in essence outside of markdowns original use case of web publishing, why bother using it?
      - vidarh 6y ago
        Here is the grand total of formatting supported by RTF in use in my novels: * headers * italics * maybe 2-3 instances of *bold* through the entire text. I don't need any additional "quality of editing". Hiding the syntax is irrelevant because the needs are so limited. Hiding the user interface on the other hand, matters to me, because it's a distraction (to others it isn't). My editor color-codes the headers and the italics, and having it stand out matters far more to me than that it looks the way it will in the formatted book, because my draft looks nothing like the finished book will anyway. If you look at interviews with writers, you'll find a whole lot of obsession over the process, and things like how it feels to write with a pen vs. a typewriter vs. a word processor, and very, very little about what their drafts look like. It's far down the list of considerations you'll find novelists care about. Nobody cares what the drafts look like, because they are transient. In fact you'll find a whole lot of authors advocate avoiding going back and editing and arguing for things like dictaphones etc. to make going back harder or using tools that won't let scroll up in some cases to simulate the typewriter experience, and all kinds of similar obsessions with spending as little time as possible on formatting and what the manuscript looks like in preference of being able to just dump the first draft into text the fastest way possible (while other authors want writing the first draft to take longer on purpose - to some that is a reason for using pens or pencils). You mentioned Gaiman in another reply - someone who has talked at length about how since he wrote Stardust in a fountain pen he has come to enjoy being forced to rewrite his second draft entirely instead of being able to go back and forth and editing it since he switched to writing with pen on paper. I'm sure you can find novelists that want to see a beautifully formatted manuscript while writing it. They have tools they can use. But to suggest Markdown is some sort of big hindrance compared to some of the barriers novelists create for themselves on purpose doesn't pass the smell test for me.

em-bee 6y ago

how do you convert from markdown to standard manuscript format? starting to write in markdown or even plain text is fine, but once the first draft is submitted to the editor or sent to a publisher for consideration it usually needs to be a word or rtf document in standard manuscript format. once converted i am stuck using libreoffice to revise and edit the story. i found tools that convert from markdown to ODF (which i can then load and export as word) but i have not found any way to apply a standard manuscript style in the conversion process. without that i'd have to manually reformat the document each time i want to submit a new revision.

jonnycomputer 6y ago
I tried out and one issue I had was with indented paragraphs. I ended up using LibreWriter's regex search replace to remove all the extraneous newlines.
- em-bee 6y ago
  can you describe the complete process you use to convert your documents?
  - jonnycomputer 6y ago
    I only gave it a try for a chapter or two just to get a feel for what might be involved. I first tried pandoc. This mostly worked, except for the indentation of paragraphs. I took care of that by setting up LibreOffice's paragraph indentation, and used LibreOffice's search replace to remove the (now) extraneous new lines. My recommendation is to grab a decently long markdown document and give it a try.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
em-bee 6y ago
i found an answer to this question here: http://www.autodidacts.io/convert-markdown-to-standard-manuscript-format-odts-docs-and-pdfs-with-pandoc/ http://www.autodidacts.io/convert-markdown-to-standard-manus...

lelag 6y ago

I also use Ulysses and very happy with it (except for it being a subscription based product). The feature that I would miss the most by switching to novelWriter or another open source solution would be the following: - auto cloud sync across all devices (I can even write on my phone if I think of something while waiting for the bus) - print quality output in PDF and epub with a single click (and many available themes to choose from). - nice eye pleasing UI that put me in the right mood for writing - good integration with my third party writing assistance software (Antidote).

jjkaczor 6y ago
"auto cloud sync across all devices" hmmm - if it is an editor that handles text files, then myself, I would rely on one of the myriad of sync tools/platforms available, rather than have someone else's implementation
- em-bee 6y ago
  syncthing is the tool i use for that now
- lelag 6y ago
  True and it's actually possible to use any tools you want as it supports local directories of markdown files (I use git to version my writing) but the product does not target at a technical audience but writers in general and their cloud sync is pretty well implemented. I like their cloud sync for the ability to sync with ios devices without doing anything in particular.
JulianMorrison 6y ago
I use Ghostwriter, it's free. I write in a directory that is continuously synced to Dropbox. And I write in pandoc flavored markdown, so a single script can spit out compiled PDF or epub.
- lelag 6y ago
  I've wanted to try it as it looks pretty slick but it's apparently "a [...] Markdown editor for Windows and Linux". Not much of an help if you are using macOS.

falcolas 6y ago

Funnily enough, a lot of the work I've interacted with has been in the Lit RPG genre - which needs a lot more, since they're often including tables of "character data", not to mention "system" fonts. It's surprisingly challenging to typeset and make it broadly readable across devices.

ehutch79 6y ago
As an avid LitRPG reader, i can tell you most authors need to scale their system WAY back. I like the crunchy parts, but at the end of the day story should take the focus, not 10 page long stat tables. Either that, or there's just enough crunch to slap a litrpg label on a bucket of cliche fantasy tropes.
- falcolas 6y ago
  > most authors need to scale their system WAY back Oh, no doubt. I've seen entire chapters devoted to "character evolutions" and the associated spew of repetitive skills/character sheets. What I personally like is when there's a secondary resource (aka a wiki) which tracks changes to the various character sheets and skills over time. Perhaps this could be done within the novel by using appendices? Wouldn't help extensively with Patreon-based web novels, sadly. All that said, litrpg - not to mention software development books, cookbooks, etc - do still need these kinds of extended typesetting resources.
wishinghand 6y ago
I’m just getting into making RPGs and I was using Joplin. Switched to Zettlr for the linking and file folder == a project paradigm. What are you using? I was hoping to use the PHP based command line tool Ibis to convert to PDF but in order to auto-generate a table of contents I’d need to have way too much white space after each section. Ideally I could change the output formatting with a CSS file.