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I once had a manager that thought he could negotiate estimates. That is like negotiating with the weatherman about the weather. Sure, maybe in the end you can c

I once had a manager that thought he could negotiate estimates. That is like negotiating with the weatherman about the weather. Sure, maybe in the end you can convince them it will be finished sooner. But the fact is that it really doesn't change reality.

benhurmarcel 6y ago
I find it much less stressful to deal with since I've made peace with the fact that some managers want to be lied to.
- discreteevent 6y ago
  Be careful because those lies become expectations for everyone that manager speaks to.
lixtra 6y ago
Typically there are many dimensions to a solution, the negotiation can be about trading one dimension for another. - does it have to be instant or can we run it as a batch - maybe it’s enough to have this tool in English only Etc.
- IanCal 6y ago
  I think this is a vital point. Estimates help narrow down what is important and what isn't. Maybe you want features x, y and z. If it takes a day then X is worthwhile, if it's going to take a month don't bother. Z must be done so if that's going to take a long time we need to drop y. One of the best product owners I've worked for would often ask for estimates and base plans and features from those. Some things would be easy technically and valuable, others harder and just a nice to have (but worth it if it only pushed things back a day).
  - ryandrake 6y ago
    I remember an interview at a well known tech-ish company where the question started out as “Estimate this project” with a good description of the scope and team. After I said something like 4 months, interviewer said, “OK. The CEO says it needs to be done in 2 weeks. What now?” I thought this was a basic project management question about trading off quality, scope, schedule, staffing, etc. and offered the usual suggestions of cutting scope (nope CEO demands entire scope), cutting quality (nope can’t compromise quality), increasing the team, contracting out, reprioritizing and realeasing P1s in 2 weeks (nope, nope, nope). Obviously I didn’t get the job. Later I learned from an acquaintance inside the company that the right answer was probably “Work the team 24 hour days, nights and weekends, for 2weeks to deliver what the CEO wants. I think I dodged a bullet there.
- tikhonj 6y ago
  Negotiating scope is a different mindset than negotiating estimates. Even better would be making sure the team understands both the real goal they're trying to achieve and how time plays into it, letting the team make scope trade-offs like that as they go along.
  - Gene_Parmesan 6y ago
    All discussions about estimates are really just discussions about scope. I try to make that as clear as possible when I'm talking about time estimates. There is no 'negotiating' estimates. If someone is being a little pushy with trying to get a shorter estimate, I will always just rephrase it as a trade-off. 'Doing it in fewer than X months would mean dumping X feature/walking back on Y commitment,' whatever the case may be. I think in general these conversations always go better when you make the other person feel like they have a choice. Really, in today's corporate world everyone is playing CYA at all times. The person trying to bring down the estimate is probably doing so because they are anticipating what their boss will say. By listing potential trade-offs for them, I'm helping them by giving them fodder for that talk that they'll be facing, and they'll be able to give their boss a choice. You always get better reactions out of people when they have choices, rather than just presenting a stone wall to them. Having said that, some times the person will really just keep being pushy, and then fortitude is necessary. If you are someone who has trouble definitively saying 'no' when it's required, you're doing your team a disservice by being the person giving estimates. You really need to never slip with this; all it takes is for you to one time cave and say, "okay, maybe we can try to shave a week off" and now that person knows that your estimates are negotiable. If you consistently phrase them as facts rather than bids (like the sort of estimate a contractor gives you for a house), you'll get better results.
  - sumtechguy 6y ago
    You can tell when they are negotiating time instead of scope. It will be something like "surely we can do this in 2 days not 5?" Instead of "we probably will take 2-5 days to do this but need it in 2 so something of 3 days needs to come out somewhere else". The first one is saying 'work harder and just do it.' The second is 'ok it may take 2-5 days but lets pull something else out to make up for the deadline we want'. I found orgs that negotiate time did not talk to their team in the first place. Then went on to promise something on behalf of the team. Now they do not want to eat the humble pie of 'I ran the numbers and you only get half' instead they get it going and just overbudget on the thing. Which just makes everyone in the process mad.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  In my experience, the sort of people who believe in negotiating estimates are also the sort of people who only believe there's one dimension that can be traded off: how much unpaid overtime will the developer work?
sporkland 6y ago
I hate to sound cynical, but it can change reality if he were to use the estimate to extort overtime out of the team by citing their own estimates. I don't think it works out medium to long term, but could help him short term with the right teams. I assume they were also hiring for pliability/submissiveness. The big cost tends to be software quality as it is less visible/harder to measure than dates and scope.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  In practice, the lower you can get the estimate, the more it will shoot back in your face. I can say that this company had the worst planning I have ever seen, with some project not being able to finish at all.
BurningFrog 6y ago
You and I act like weathermen in this situation. But plenty of engineers do estimate based on what they think they can get away with or other negotiable ways.
- danieltillett 6y ago
  I used to be a non-technical manager “managing” a team of developers. I later (through circumstances) became a developer. Looking back at the games my team played with me I can see why many managers are cynical about the estimates they are given and attempt to negotiate.
  - yarg 6y ago
    I always overestimated because it was the only way that I could ever devote anytime at all to technical debt reduction.
    - BurningFrog 6y ago
      I'd say you're including necessary maintenance in your estimates, not overestimating!
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    Not claiming it applies to you, but a lot of managers don't understand the difference between an estimate and a deadline. It comes back in all kinds of weird ways.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dragonsky67 6y ago
at that point you are negotiating just how much of your personal time/stress you are going to burn to meet their expectations. Also maybe how many other people you are going to have to short change because they have jumped the queue.
antihero 6y ago
Sounds like the type that thinks that if they blow enough smoke up your arse then you get things done quicker, and they look better. I hope they die out.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  They did die out. Their planning was crazy, promises to customers never achieved, some projects even completely cancelled because of major overruns etc. They also started doing their own estimates since they didn't like mine. 3 months of work with 3 people -> 1 week of work 1 developer. Not kidding about this last one! We didn't finish it in 3 months because of scope creep. Yeah they went bust.
JamesBarney 6y ago
Yeah I've had a couple of managers try this. I always tell them my estimate is how long I think it will take take. But if he believes that estimate is incorrect he's welcome to modify it as he sees fit. (Over e-mail of course). Sometimes they'll modify it, sometimes they won't but at least I won't have to argue about it or get in a situation later where suddenly they pretend like their estimate is my estimate.

benhurmarcel 6y ago

I find it much less stressful to deal with since I've made peace with the fact that some managers want to be lied to.

discreteevent 6y ago
Be careful because those lies become expectations for everyone that manager speaks to.

lixtra 6y ago

Typically there are many dimensions to a solution, the negotiation can be about trading one dimension for another. - does it have to be instant or can we run it as a batch - maybe it’s enough to have this tool in English only Etc.

IanCal 6y ago
I think this is a vital point. Estimates help narrow down what is important and what isn't. Maybe you want features x, y and z. If it takes a day then X is worthwhile, if it's going to take a month don't bother. Z must be done so if that's going to take a long time we need to drop y. One of the best product owners I've worked for would often ask for estimates and base plans and features from those. Some things would be easy technically and valuable, others harder and just a nice to have (but worth it if it only pushed things back a day).
- ryandrake 6y ago
  I remember an interview at a well known tech-ish company where the question started out as “Estimate this project” with a good description of the scope and team. After I said something like 4 months, interviewer said, “OK. The CEO says it needs to be done in 2 weeks. What now?” I thought this was a basic project management question about trading off quality, scope, schedule, staffing, etc. and offered the usual suggestions of cutting scope (nope CEO demands entire scope), cutting quality (nope can’t compromise quality), increasing the team, contracting out, reprioritizing and realeasing P1s in 2 weeks (nope, nope, nope). Obviously I didn’t get the job. Later I learned from an acquaintance inside the company that the right answer was probably “Work the team 24 hour days, nights and weekends, for 2weeks to deliver what the CEO wants. I think I dodged a bullet there.
tikhonj 6y ago
Negotiating scope is a different mindset than negotiating estimates. Even better would be making sure the team understands both the real goal they're trying to achieve and how time plays into it, letting the team make scope trade-offs like that as they go along.
- Gene_Parmesan 6y ago
  All discussions about estimates are really just discussions about scope. I try to make that as clear as possible when I'm talking about time estimates. There is no 'negotiating' estimates. If someone is being a little pushy with trying to get a shorter estimate, I will always just rephrase it as a trade-off. 'Doing it in fewer than X months would mean dumping X feature/walking back on Y commitment,' whatever the case may be. I think in general these conversations always go better when you make the other person feel like they have a choice. Really, in today's corporate world everyone is playing CYA at all times. The person trying to bring down the estimate is probably doing so because they are anticipating what their boss will say. By listing potential trade-offs for them, I'm helping them by giving them fodder for that talk that they'll be facing, and they'll be able to give their boss a choice. You always get better reactions out of people when they have choices, rather than just presenting a stone wall to them. Having said that, some times the person will really just keep being pushy, and then fortitude is necessary. If you are someone who has trouble definitively saying 'no' when it's required, you're doing your team a disservice by being the person giving estimates. You really need to never slip with this; all it takes is for you to one time cave and say, "okay, maybe we can try to shave a week off" and now that person knows that your estimates are negotiable. If you consistently phrase them as facts rather than bids (like the sort of estimate a contractor gives you for a house), you'll get better results.
- sumtechguy 6y ago
  You can tell when they are negotiating time instead of scope. It will be something like "surely we can do this in 2 days not 5?" Instead of "we probably will take 2-5 days to do this but need it in 2 so something of 3 days needs to come out somewhere else". The first one is saying 'work harder and just do it.' The second is 'ok it may take 2-5 days but lets pull something else out to make up for the deadline we want'. I found orgs that negotiate time did not talk to their team in the first place. Then went on to promise something on behalf of the team. Now they do not want to eat the humble pie of 'I ran the numbers and you only get half' instead they get it going and just overbudget on the thing. Which just makes everyone in the process mad.
commandlinefan 6y ago
In my experience, the sort of people who believe in negotiating estimates are also the sort of people who only believe there's one dimension that can be traded off: how much unpaid overtime will the developer work?

sporkland 6y ago

I hate to sound cynical, but it can change reality if he were to use the estimate to extort overtime out of the team by citing their own estimates. I don't think it works out medium to long term, but could help him short term with the right teams. I assume they were also hiring for pliability/submissiveness. The big cost tends to be software quality as it is less visible/harder to measure than dates and scope.

koonsolo 6y ago
In practice, the lower you can get the estimate, the more it will shoot back in your face. I can say that this company had the worst planning I have ever seen, with some project not being able to finish at all.

BurningFrog 6y ago

You and I act like weathermen in this situation. But plenty of engineers do estimate based on what they think they can get away with or other negotiable ways.

danieltillett 6y ago
I used to be a non-technical manager “managing” a team of developers. I later (through circumstances) became a developer. Looking back at the games my team played with me I can see why many managers are cynical about the estimates they are given and attempt to negotiate.
- yarg 6y ago
  I always overestimated because it was the only way that I could ever devote anytime at all to technical debt reduction.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    I'd say you're including necessary maintenance in your estimates, not overestimating!
- koonsolo 6y ago
  Not claiming it applies to you, but a lot of managers don't understand the difference between an estimate and a deadline. It comes back in all kinds of weird ways.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

dragonsky67 6y ago

at that point you are negotiating just how much of your personal time/stress you are going to burn to meet their expectations. Also maybe how many other people you are going to have to short change because they have jumped the queue.

antihero 6y ago

Sounds like the type that thinks that if they blow enough smoke up your arse then you get things done quicker, and they look better. I hope they die out.

koonsolo 6y ago
They did die out. Their planning was crazy, promises to customers never achieved, some projects even completely cancelled because of major overruns etc. They also started doing their own estimates since they didn't like mine. 3 months of work with 3 people -> 1 week of work 1 developer. Not kidding about this last one! We didn't finish it in 3 months because of scope creep. Yeah they went bust.

JamesBarney 6y ago

Yeah I've had a couple of managers try this. I always tell them my estimate is how long I think it will take take. But if he believes that estimate is incorrect he's welcome to modify it as he sees fit. (Over e-mail of course). Sometimes they'll modify it, sometimes they won't but at least I won't have to argue about it or get in a situation later where suddenly they pretend like their estimate is my estimate.