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Investors... In what? It’s a terrible currency. It’s a terrible store of value too since it requires the power of a small developed nation just to keep it onli

by api 6y ago

Investors... In what? It’s a terrible currency. It’s a terrible store of value too since it requires the power of a small developed nation just to keep it online. Gold needs some security but otherwise gold atoms just sit there and gold. Property and widely diversified bags of assets are also better stores or value. It’s not even really decentralized. Any industrial process is subject to economies of scale. If it sticks around eventually there will be one or two mining conglomerates. Pools already have quite a lot of power and could collude to attack the chain if they could profit by it or if nation states forced them. It’s a transparent bubble and gambling vehicle with little other utility.

xwdv 6y ago
The goal is just to not get caught holding the bag.
runsWphotons 6y ago
If you just hold bitcoins they just sit there too mostly. It takes energy to mine them just like it takes energy to mine gold. It seems it takes a bit more energy to mine a bitcoin than an ounce of gold, but bitcoins have other properties that gold doesn't. (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07283-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07283-3)
- api 6y ago
  If you turn off the chain bitcoins still exist, but they are not fungible. What value do they have when they can't be traded?
rglullis 6y ago
Your (absolutely valid) issue is with Proof-of-Work, not with Bitcoin or crypto in general. If/When Ethereum 2.0 does come through with its PoS consensus systems, will you still call it a bubble?
- api 6y ago
  If PoS actually works maybe not, but I'll believe it when I see it. Most alternatives to PoW I have seen replace it with some form of phantom centralization or are not secure. My understanding is that PoS makes the hyperdeflationary problem worse by locking up a lot of currency, and also makes the wealth centralization problem worse. Eventually you'll end up with a few large stakers instead of a few large miners. The thing that would really change my mind is if I saw cryptocurrencies being used a lot for useful commerce, not just gambling and money laundering. The closest I know is Monero which is used for black market commerce, but at least it's commerce. Trouble is that the bubbles actually chase away useful commerce by making the currency incredibly unstable vs. other currencies and stores of value.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    Glad to hear that you are at least open for the possibility. Regarding PoS: Ethereum is not gold. Ethereum is oil. Yes, it has value, but only when it is used to get you something else. Regarding "commerce" with crypto, I mostly agree, but the reality is that for payments to become a common use case we still need to build A LOT of critical pieces - chiefly: have a reliable/cheap system to get stable currencies [0][1], lower the transaction costs[2], make it easy for people to request[3] and accept payments online [4] and build some permissionless system to settle payment disputes [5] as well as to get insurance and the ability to do chargebacks. These things will take time to get right, but this should not mean that they should be facing eternal and constant unfounded criticism or accusations of fraud/malice. There are lots of people working on crypto who don't care about the price fluctuations and are not doing it just for the quick buck - they should be supported, not discouraged. [0] https://synthetix.io https://synthetix.io [1] https://makerdao.com https://makerdao.com [2] https://raiden.network https://raiden.network [3] https://request.network https://request.network [4] https://hub20.io https://hub20.io [5] https://kleros.io https://kleros.io
- albntomat0 6y ago
  I'm not the poster you're replying to, but the underlying PoW issues are, IMO, disconnected from the wild price behavior and investors using it to speculate. Coupled with difficulty in scaling transactions, and the sketchiness of Tether (and the affect of a potential collapse of Tether on Bitcoin), Bitcoin definitely is a potential bubble.

by api 6y ago

xwdv 6y ago

The goal is just to not get caught holding the bag.

runsWphotons 6y ago

If you just hold bitcoins they just sit there too mostly. It takes energy to mine them just like it takes energy to mine gold. It seems it takes a bit more energy to mine a bitcoin than an ounce of gold, but bitcoins have other properties that gold doesn't. (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07283-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07283-3)

api 6y ago
If you turn off the chain bitcoins still exist, but they are not fungible. What value do they have when they can't be traded?

rglullis 6y ago

Your (absolutely valid) issue is with Proof-of-Work, not with Bitcoin or crypto in general. If/When Ethereum 2.0 does come through with its PoS consensus systems, will you still call it a bubble?

api 6y ago
If PoS actually works maybe not, but I'll believe it when I see it. Most alternatives to PoW I have seen replace it with some form of phantom centralization or are not secure. My understanding is that PoS makes the hyperdeflationary problem worse by locking up a lot of currency, and also makes the wealth centralization problem worse. Eventually you'll end up with a few large stakers instead of a few large miners. The thing that would really change my mind is if I saw cryptocurrencies being used a lot for useful commerce, not just gambling and money laundering. The closest I know is Monero which is used for black market commerce, but at least it's commerce. Trouble is that the bubbles actually chase away useful commerce by making the currency incredibly unstable vs. other currencies and stores of value.
- rglullis 6y ago
  Glad to hear that you are at least open for the possibility. Regarding PoS: Ethereum is not gold. Ethereum is oil. Yes, it has value, but only when it is used to get you something else. Regarding "commerce" with crypto, I mostly agree, but the reality is that for payments to become a common use case we still need to build A LOT of critical pieces - chiefly: have a reliable/cheap system to get stable currencies [0][1], lower the transaction costs[2], make it easy for people to request[3] and accept payments online [4] and build some permissionless system to settle payment disputes [5] as well as to get insurance and the ability to do chargebacks. These things will take time to get right, but this should not mean that they should be facing eternal and constant unfounded criticism or accusations of fraud/malice. There are lots of people working on crypto who don't care about the price fluctuations and are not doing it just for the quick buck - they should be supported, not discouraged. [0] https://synthetix.io https://synthetix.io [1] https://makerdao.com https://makerdao.com [2] https://raiden.network https://raiden.network [3] https://request.network https://request.network [4] https://hub20.io https://hub20.io [5] https://kleros.io https://kleros.io
albntomat0 6y ago
I'm not the poster you're replying to, but the underlying PoW issues are, IMO, disconnected from the wild price behavior and investors using it to speculate. Coupled with difficulty in scaling transactions, and the sketchiness of Tether (and the affect of a potential collapse of Tether on Bitcoin), Bitcoin definitely is a potential bubble.