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As it gains more followers, more investors and a higher value per coin, the media and regulatory assaults will continue to increase.

cft 6y ago
And it's likely that the government assaults will take an environmental angle.
- Nursie 6y ago
  Good, it uses more power than Switzerland, it's ridiculous.
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    It uses more power than Switzerland to do TWO TRANSACTIONS PER SECOND at the very most. A PC from 2004 could run this network better. It is beyond ridiculous, it's a crime against humanity.
    - disruptalot 6y ago
      Bitcoin is not simply transactions. - Bitcoin is an algorithmic and unchangeable monetary base. - It's an un-censorable, neutral global payment network - It's an immutable ledger. What are you familiar with to compare to such a thing?
      - user-the-name 6y ago
        Actually, bitcoin is simply transactions.
        cesarb 6y ago
        To elaborate: what people think of as a "Bitcoin" (or a fraction of a Bitcoin) is under the covers the unspent output of a transaction (this includes mined coins, which are a transaction without an input). Without transactions, there's no Bitcoin.
    - celsoazevedo 6y ago
      Don't layer 2 solutions like Lightning Network greatly increase the number of transactions?
      - Nursie 6y ago
        In theory. In practice lightning channels require on-chain transactions to set up and tear down, and also have (had?) issues with nodes needing to be online for various reasons (including potentially losing the money to the counterparty), and IIRC there were potentially unsolvable routing issues too. They also require significant quantities of bitcoin to be locked into channels to make them work. It seems like a real hack.
      - user-the-name 6y ago
        Nope. For lightning to scale, it would have to solve its routing problem, which it has absolutely zero prospect of ever doing. It is an open problem in science, and considered extremely difficult.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      Your (absolutely valid) issue is with Proof-of-Work, not with Bitcoin or crypto in general. Layer-2 solutions are coming up and Ethereum is showing excellent progress towards Proof-of-Stake. Combining these two, it will not only eliminate wasteful energy spending but will also get do hundreds of thousands of transactions. When we get to those, will you stop crying for its demise or is there any other chip on your shoulder?
      - user-the-name 6y ago
        Layer two solutions are hot garbage, and will never do anything useful. Lightning is impossible and will never scale. People have been trying and failing to implement proof of stake for years and years.
        rglullis 6y ago
        Can we agree to not take things related to Bitcoin and generalize it as the whole space for crypto? Lightning is not the only layer-2 solution there is (just as an example: Ethereum already has zk rollup-based solutions) and even if it were there is a growing number of people that are using it successfully. > People have been trying and failing to implement proof of stake for years and years. People have been trying and failing to implement heavier-than-air flight machines for years and years. So?
        user-the-name 6y ago
        People have been trying and failing to transmute lead into gold for centuries. Some things just don't work. And proof of stake is not exactly technologically difficult. Yet it's still not here.
        rglullis 6y ago
        There is now 2 million ether (~3 billion USD) staked for ETH2. If are so certain of it not being viable, what's stopping you from shorting it? You and every Negative Nancy out there could pool together to bet against it, no? Even if you are not interested in the money, you can donate to environmentally-friendly causes - what do you think?
  - fedreserved 6y ago
    It's a necessary cost to get everyone used to crypto, in order for central banks to roll out digital currency, eliminate cash, and ultimately eliminate all crypto that isn't from a central bank. Financial privacy no more
api 6y ago
Investors... In what? It’s a terrible currency. It’s a terrible store of value too since it requires the power of a small developed nation just to keep it online. Gold needs some security but otherwise gold atoms just sit there and gold. Property and widely diversified bags of assets are also better stores or value. It’s not even really decentralized. Any industrial process is subject to economies of scale. If it sticks around eventually there will be one or two mining conglomerates. Pools already have quite a lot of power and could collude to attack the chain if they could profit by it or if nation states forced them. It’s a transparent bubble and gambling vehicle with little other utility.
- xwdv 6y ago
  The goal is just to not get caught holding the bag.
- runsWphotons 6y ago
  If you just hold bitcoins they just sit there too mostly. It takes energy to mine them just like it takes energy to mine gold. It seems it takes a bit more energy to mine a bitcoin than an ounce of gold, but bitcoins have other properties that gold doesn't. (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07283-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07283-3)
  - api 6y ago
    If you turn off the chain bitcoins still exist, but they are not fungible. What value do they have when they can't be traded?
- rglullis 6y ago
  Your (absolutely valid) issue is with Proof-of-Work, not with Bitcoin or crypto in general. If/When Ethereum 2.0 does come through with its PoS consensus systems, will you still call it a bubble?
  - api 6y ago
    If PoS actually works maybe not, but I'll believe it when I see it. Most alternatives to PoW I have seen replace it with some form of phantom centralization or are not secure. My understanding is that PoS makes the hyperdeflationary problem worse by locking up a lot of currency, and also makes the wealth centralization problem worse. Eventually you'll end up with a few large stakers instead of a few large miners. The thing that would really change my mind is if I saw cryptocurrencies being used a lot for useful commerce, not just gambling and money laundering. The closest I know is Monero which is used for black market commerce, but at least it's commerce. Trouble is that the bubbles actually chase away useful commerce by making the currency incredibly unstable vs. other currencies and stores of value.
user-the-name 6y ago
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=bitcoin https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge... Generally, it's been losing them. It's only the degenerate gamblers still clinging on, and the scammers. So many scammers.

cft 6y ago

And it's likely that the government assaults will take an environmental angle.

Nursie 6y ago
Good, it uses more power than Switzerland, it's ridiculous.
- user-the-name 6y ago
  It uses more power than Switzerland to do TWO TRANSACTIONS PER SECOND at the very most. A PC from 2004 could run this network better. It is beyond ridiculous, it's a crime against humanity.
  - disruptalot 6y ago
    Bitcoin is not simply transactions. - Bitcoin is an algorithmic and unchangeable monetary base. - It's an un-censorable, neutral global payment network - It's an immutable ledger. What are you familiar with to compare to such a thing?
    - user-the-name 6y ago
      Actually, bitcoin is simply transactions.
      - cesarb 6y ago
        To elaborate: what people think of as a "Bitcoin" (or a fraction of a Bitcoin) is under the covers the unspent output of a transaction (this includes mined coins, which are a transaction without an input). Without transactions, there's no Bitcoin.
  - celsoazevedo 6y ago
    Don't layer 2 solutions like Lightning Network greatly increase the number of transactions?
    - Nursie 6y ago
      In theory. In practice lightning channels require on-chain transactions to set up and tear down, and also have (had?) issues with nodes needing to be online for various reasons (including potentially losing the money to the counterparty), and IIRC there were potentially unsolvable routing issues too. They also require significant quantities of bitcoin to be locked into channels to make them work. It seems like a real hack.
    - user-the-name 6y ago
      Nope. For lightning to scale, it would have to solve its routing problem, which it has absolutely zero prospect of ever doing. It is an open problem in science, and considered extremely difficult.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    Your (absolutely valid) issue is with Proof-of-Work, not with Bitcoin or crypto in general. Layer-2 solutions are coming up and Ethereum is showing excellent progress towards Proof-of-Stake. Combining these two, it will not only eliminate wasteful energy spending but will also get do hundreds of thousands of transactions. When we get to those, will you stop crying for its demise or is there any other chip on your shoulder?
    - user-the-name 6y ago
      Layer two solutions are hot garbage, and will never do anything useful. Lightning is impossible and will never scale. People have been trying and failing to implement proof of stake for years and years.
      - rglullis 6y ago
        Can we agree to not take things related to Bitcoin and generalize it as the whole space for crypto? Lightning is not the only layer-2 solution there is (just as an example: Ethereum already has zk rollup-based solutions) and even if it were there is a growing number of people that are using it successfully. > People have been trying and failing to implement proof of stake for years and years. People have been trying and failing to implement heavier-than-air flight machines for years and years. So?
        user-the-name 6y ago
        People have been trying and failing to transmute lead into gold for centuries. Some things just don't work. And proof of stake is not exactly technologically difficult. Yet it's still not here.
        rglullis 6y ago
        There is now 2 million ether (~3 billion USD) staked for ETH2. If are so certain of it not being viable, what's stopping you from shorting it? You and every Negative Nancy out there could pool together to bet against it, no? Even if you are not interested in the money, you can donate to environmentally-friendly causes - what do you think?
- fedreserved 6y ago
  It's a necessary cost to get everyone used to crypto, in order for central banks to roll out digital currency, eliminate cash, and ultimately eliminate all crypto that isn't from a central bank. Financial privacy no more

api 6y ago

Investors... In what? It’s a terrible currency. It’s a terrible store of value too since it requires the power of a small developed nation just to keep it online. Gold needs some security but otherwise gold atoms just sit there and gold. Property and widely diversified bags of assets are also better stores or value. It’s not even really decentralized. Any industrial process is subject to economies of scale. If it sticks around eventually there will be one or two mining conglomerates. Pools already have quite a lot of power and could collude to attack the chain if they could profit by it or if nation states forced them. It’s a transparent bubble and gambling vehicle with little other utility.

xwdv 6y ago
The goal is just to not get caught holding the bag.
runsWphotons 6y ago
If you just hold bitcoins they just sit there too mostly. It takes energy to mine them just like it takes energy to mine gold. It seems it takes a bit more energy to mine a bitcoin than an ounce of gold, but bitcoins have other properties that gold doesn't. (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07283-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07283-3)
- api 6y ago
  If you turn off the chain bitcoins still exist, but they are not fungible. What value do they have when they can't be traded?
rglullis 6y ago
Your (absolutely valid) issue is with Proof-of-Work, not with Bitcoin or crypto in general. If/When Ethereum 2.0 does come through with its PoS consensus systems, will you still call it a bubble?
- api 6y ago
  If PoS actually works maybe not, but I'll believe it when I see it. Most alternatives to PoW I have seen replace it with some form of phantom centralization or are not secure. My understanding is that PoS makes the hyperdeflationary problem worse by locking up a lot of currency, and also makes the wealth centralization problem worse. Eventually you'll end up with a few large stakers instead of a few large miners. The thing that would really change my mind is if I saw cryptocurrencies being used a lot for useful commerce, not just gambling and money laundering. The closest I know is Monero which is used for black market commerce, but at least it's commerce. Trouble is that the bubbles actually chase away useful commerce by making the currency incredibly unstable vs. other currencies and stores of value.

user-the-name 6y ago

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=bitcoin https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge... Generally, it's been losing them. It's only the degenerate gamblers still clinging on, and the scammers. So many scammers.