5 ms·

>The bitcoin network annually wastes 78 TWh (terrawatt hours) annually or the energy consumption of several million US households. According to the Cambridge B

by Hamuko 6y ago

>The bitcoin network annually wastes 78 TWh (terrawatt hours) annually or the energy consumption of several million US households. According to the Cambridge Bitcoin Electricity Consumption Index (https://cbeci.org/ https://cbeci.org/), it actually wastes about 115 TWh annually now. They even have a comparison page where you can see that the network sits between United Arab Emirates (113 TWh) and Argentina (121 TWh) in annual energy use.

api 6y ago
This has to now far exceed China’s ghost cities and Dubai’s doomed megaprojects as the greatest waste of resources in recent history, though it still has a way to go to match the US/USSR arms race. That one would be tough to beat, though you could argue that it’s waste is offset a bit by the technological spinoff it generated. Meanwhile space exploration and life extension struggle to attract funding. Humans are merely clever, not intelligent. If we were actually intelligent we would understand the systems in which we embed ourselves instead of being at the mercy of them.
- Closi 6y ago
  It shows that it’s bad when we are even trying to compare it to the Cold War, and the conclusion is that at least the Cold War had some positives!
  - api 6y ago
    To be fair cryptocurrency has subsidized a fair bit of interesting cryptography research, but holy crap could that have been done so much more cheaply by just paying some universities to staff up with cryptographers and giving them some challenges. You could probably have founded and fully endowed dozens of top tier universities for what we have wasted on this. Another good thing to look at for perspective: how many startups could we have seeded and venture funded for the money literally burned by cryptocurrency? Cancer. Pure cancer.
    - DonHopkins 6y ago
      All that coal burnt to mine Bitcoin literally causes cancer, birth defects, neurological issues, pollution, and global warming, not to mention widespread cult-like stupidity, fraudulent shilling, shady business practices, irresponsible gambling, and other personally and environmentally self-destructive behavior.
agumonkey 6y ago
I'd like to see the estimates in the coming months. Lots of people report exchanges having less and less bitcoins, allegedly due to people storing their wealth and not being interested by transactions anymore. I may be naive but it could mean the network will become underutilized for a little whiel.
- whomst 6y ago
  The amount of power the Bitcoin network uses is proportional to the number of miners, independent of the number of transactions. it is designed to have one block per ten minutes and adjusts the "difficulty" to match. As long as the price of Bitcoin keeps going up, I can't imagine mining will become less popular.
- CyberDildonics 6y ago
  The average transaction costs around $16 USD. I'm not sure what you mean by the network becoming underutilized but bitcoin's tiny transaction throughput is in high demand. Also what do you mean by "exchanges having less and less bitcoin" and what are you basing that on? Most people unfortunately don't transfer what they have out of exchanges in the first place, even less so with transaction costs being enormous.
  - nightski 6y ago
    What type of transaction? Are you taking $16 in fees? Or do you mean energy cost for mining that transaction into a block? Fees are definitely not that high. On Gemini for example I can buy $100 of bitcoin for $0.15 (as a one off example for a USD->BTC transaction).
    - jsf01 6y ago
      The average transaction fee refers to the cost in btc to make a transfer. That amount is then converted to usd to make it easier to comprehend. Such fees go up during periods of high strain on the network and as people choose to pay more to get their transactions through quickly. https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_fee https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_f...
UShouldBWorking 6y ago
"Wastes" I don't think you are using that word correctly. Would you say that all the electricity used by Chase bank is "wasted". What an absolutely nonsensical use if the word. Bitcoin USES electricity to secure financial transactions. Just because YOU think those particular financial transactions are being over valued does not mean resources were wasted to make them. Really, lol!
mcbuilder 6y ago
When I actually held bitcoins back in 2012 I always made the comparison to the amount of energy needed to transport physical bills in armored cars, hire security guards, build giant vaults, printing presses, etc. Back then it seemed a reasonable comparison to make, but then the actual power consumption numbers seem very small back then by comparison. I also remember Satoshi saying in the white paper that people in temperate climates might would be the miners because the excess heat could be used to heat homes in the winter. Again I don't see the sort of environmental responsibility currently.
- Hamuko 6y ago
  I somehow don't see myself buying a $4000 ASIC to mine Bitcoin in my home and paying like 280€ per month in electricity for it even though it was -20°C Friday.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  > When I actually held bitcoins back in 2012 I always made the comparison to the amount of energy needed to transport physical bills in armored cars, hire security guards, build giant vaults, printing presses, etc. Back then it seemed a reasonable comparison to make When I saw such comparisons, I always countered with two points: - One, energy expenditure on Bitcoin network grows superlinearly; - Two, all the expenditure for trucks, vaults, presses, etc. and management for it is considered upkeep. It takes money from the pockets of people who would prefer to keep it. So these costs are ruthlessly optimized down to minimum. If printing or transporting bills could be made free, financial institutions would jump at it. Meanwhile, in Bitcoin, burning energy is a core part of securing the network, and it's being periodically adjusted towards more waste. If mining could be made free, the network would collapse. These points paint a quite different trajectory over time for Bitcoin's energy use vs. fiat energy use. And it seems to pan out.
- DemocracyFTW 6y ago
  > I don't see the sort of environmental responsibility curren<strike>tly</strike>cy fixed that for ya. The good thing about heating your home in the winter with excess thermal energy caused by cryptomining is that in summer you can either stuff all that heat into bags and save it for winter, sell it in town to people who have a sauna at home, or send it to the opposite hemisphere where people are freezing. /s

by Hamuko 6y ago

api 6y ago

This has to now far exceed China’s ghost cities and Dubai’s doomed megaprojects as the greatest waste of resources in recent history, though it still has a way to go to match the US/USSR arms race. That one would be tough to beat, though you could argue that it’s waste is offset a bit by the technological spinoff it generated. Meanwhile space exploration and life extension struggle to attract funding. Humans are merely clever, not intelligent. If we were actually intelligent we would understand the systems in which we embed ourselves instead of being at the mercy of them.

Closi 6y ago
It shows that it’s bad when we are even trying to compare it to the Cold War, and the conclusion is that at least the Cold War had some positives!
- api 6y ago
  To be fair cryptocurrency has subsidized a fair bit of interesting cryptography research, but holy crap could that have been done so much more cheaply by just paying some universities to staff up with cryptographers and giving them some challenges. You could probably have founded and fully endowed dozens of top tier universities for what we have wasted on this. Another good thing to look at for perspective: how many startups could we have seeded and venture funded for the money literally burned by cryptocurrency? Cancer. Pure cancer.
  - DonHopkins 6y ago
    All that coal burnt to mine Bitcoin literally causes cancer, birth defects, neurological issues, pollution, and global warming, not to mention widespread cult-like stupidity, fraudulent shilling, shady business practices, irresponsible gambling, and other personally and environmentally self-destructive behavior.

agumonkey 6y ago

I'd like to see the estimates in the coming months. Lots of people report exchanges having less and less bitcoins, allegedly due to people storing their wealth and not being interested by transactions anymore. I may be naive but it could mean the network will become underutilized for a little whiel.

whomst 6y ago
The amount of power the Bitcoin network uses is proportional to the number of miners, independent of the number of transactions. it is designed to have one block per ten minutes and adjusts the "difficulty" to match. As long as the price of Bitcoin keeps going up, I can't imagine mining will become less popular.
CyberDildonics 6y ago
The average transaction costs around $16 USD. I'm not sure what you mean by the network becoming underutilized but bitcoin's tiny transaction throughput is in high demand. Also what do you mean by "exchanges having less and less bitcoin" and what are you basing that on? Most people unfortunately don't transfer what they have out of exchanges in the first place, even less so with transaction costs being enormous.
- nightski 6y ago
  What type of transaction? Are you taking $16 in fees? Or do you mean energy cost for mining that transaction into a block? Fees are definitely not that high. On Gemini for example I can buy $100 of bitcoin for $0.15 (as a one off example for a USD->BTC transaction).
  - jsf01 6y ago
    The average transaction fee refers to the cost in btc to make a transfer. That amount is then converted to usd to make it easier to comprehend. Such fees go up during periods of high strain on the network and as people choose to pay more to get their transactions through quickly. https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_fee https://ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_average_transaction_f...

UShouldBWorking 6y ago

"Wastes" I don't think you are using that word correctly. Would you say that all the electricity used by Chase bank is "wasted". What an absolutely nonsensical use if the word. Bitcoin USES electricity to secure financial transactions. Just because YOU think those particular financial transactions are being over valued does not mean resources were wasted to make them. Really, lol!

mcbuilder 6y ago

When I actually held bitcoins back in 2012 I always made the comparison to the amount of energy needed to transport physical bills in armored cars, hire security guards, build giant vaults, printing presses, etc. Back then it seemed a reasonable comparison to make, but then the actual power consumption numbers seem very small back then by comparison. I also remember Satoshi saying in the white paper that people in temperate climates might would be the miners because the excess heat could be used to heat homes in the winter. Again I don't see the sort of environmental responsibility currently.

Hamuko 6y ago
I somehow don't see myself buying a $4000 ASIC to mine Bitcoin in my home and paying like 280€ per month in electricity for it even though it was -20°C Friday.
TeMPOraL 6y ago
> When I actually held bitcoins back in 2012 I always made the comparison to the amount of energy needed to transport physical bills in armored cars, hire security guards, build giant vaults, printing presses, etc. Back then it seemed a reasonable comparison to make When I saw such comparisons, I always countered with two points: - One, energy expenditure on Bitcoin network grows superlinearly; - Two, all the expenditure for trucks, vaults, presses, etc. and management for it is considered upkeep. It takes money from the pockets of people who would prefer to keep it. So these costs are ruthlessly optimized down to minimum. If printing or transporting bills could be made free, financial institutions would jump at it. Meanwhile, in Bitcoin, burning energy is a core part of securing the network, and it's being periodically adjusted towards more waste. If mining could be made free, the network would collapse. These points paint a quite different trajectory over time for Bitcoin's energy use vs. fiat energy use. And it seems to pan out.
DemocracyFTW 6y ago
> I don't see the sort of environmental responsibility curren<strike>tly</strike>cy fixed that for ya. The good thing about heating your home in the winter with excess thermal energy caused by cryptomining is that in summer you can either stuff all that heat into bags and save it for winter, sell it in town to people who have a sauna at home, or send it to the opposite hemisphere where people are freezing. /s