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Sad to see the focus being on gaming. Installing any modern game on windows is a nightmare. You install one root kit after another. All running as administrator

Sad to see the focus being on gaming. Installing any modern game on windows is a nightmare. You install one root kit after another. All running as administrator and installing things left and right, with each studio having their own identity tracking running forever in the background. The benefit of VR will be when it is decoupled entirely from games. Just like we got window manager composers when we finally stoped looking at openGL as a game technology.

throwaway3699 6y ago
OpenVR/OpenXR are already decoupled from games. You can target both Oculus and SteamVR with these APIs and pretty much do whatever you want. I think the only reason games dominate the medium is because of the hardware. It's very difficult to do productivity in VR, but comparatively easy to put a player into a simulated world to have fun.
- BlueTemplar 6y ago
  > You can target both Oculus and SteamVR with these APIs This hardly makes it better, and insures that VR will still be locked to other proprietary (and potentially spywareish) platforms (just not Windows).
  - throwaway3699 6y ago
    The point is that you can create a full FOSS runtime (+ drivers) for VR that will be compatible with most software out of the box. I think there was a project called OSVR that tried to do this, but I'm not sure how that's going. You could probably bring a lot of this work into the kernel if VR becomes popular enough. I've found that Valve is pretty good when it comes to respecting their users. SteamVR software isn't even DRM'd and can run without Steam.
    - BlueTemplar 6y ago
      > So, a few early adopters of the technology started developing an alternative implementation of [Valve's] OpenVR called “Open Source Virtual Reality (OSVR) which even had open-source hardware projects. Sadly, its development stalled and even today its main site is offline. Ah, I didn't know that SteamVR could run without Steam. Can Alyx (once installed) ? Still, this leaves the issue is that being theoretically Steam-free isn't enough, as the experience with AOSP/Google Play Store has shown. Valve might be 'pretty good' with their own users, but still the result of Steam's dominance is that it's getting harder and harder to get mods and play multiplayer outside of Steam.
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Half Life Alyx cannot run without Steam due to Steam DRM, like most other steam games. It's very, very easy to remove the DRM yourself, though. It's more a legal formality than an attempt at DRM and is pretty much never updated.
        throwaway45349 6y ago
        Yeah, Steam's DRM implementation is ancient and well known to be compromised. They never really push it, but publishers demand it to "feel" safe. The biggest hook is that many people prefer games on Steam due to the added benefits.
        BlueTemplar 6y ago
        A large fraction of Valve's own games are DRM-free (despite using Steamworks when launched through Steam !) : https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_Games_on_Steam#Valve https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_G... Also, there isn't a single Steam DRM, but multiple versions/layers : https://www.gog.com/forum/general/how_to_run_steam_games_offline_forever_tutorial/page1 https://www.gog.com/forum/general/how_to_run_steam_games_off... The worst of which are Valve's own Custom Executable Generation, and Denuvo, which is third-party but (last time I checked) Steam doesn't warn you about as being a 3rd-party DRM. Both of which make a game machine-specific.
    - account42 6y ago
      > The point is that you can create a full FOSS runtime (+ drivers) for VR that will be compatible with most software out of the box. I think there was a project called OSVR that tried to do this, but I'm not sure how that's going. Also OpenHMD [0] and Monado [1]. [0] http://www.openhmd.net/ http://www.openhmd.net/ [1] https://monado.freedesktop.org/ https://monado.freedesktop.org/
      - gcblkjaidfj 6y ago
        The point is that it have zero real-world hardware support. Yeah you can buy playstation controllers and hack them, but that is not realistic. (to quote the state of the art on the links you posted) Would write graphical interface code if a color monitor and a mouse required the end user to solder stuff and compile kernel drivers? While every game already had those two things but tied down to the facebook app? ..that's how insane VR is today (and for the foreseeable future)
amelius 6y ago
Yes, it's the same with GPUs, mostly made for gaming, but lots of people use them for totally different purposes.
- gcblkjaidfj 6y ago
  except that VR nobody can use for anything other than game. your GPU and integrated GPU run somewhat slower on opensource OS and drivers. Heck you can compute on them on cloud providers. Anything VR can only run if you install a game studio disguised tracker and social network apps in VR headset driver's clothing, in windows only. Even the other comment misleading saying "you already can" is only a convoluted step to provide content that will be run in the above game-restricted setting.
pjmlp 6y ago
I only install games via the Windows Store, zero root kits, all nicely sandboxed.

throwaway3699 6y ago

OpenVR/OpenXR are already decoupled from games. You can target both Oculus and SteamVR with these APIs and pretty much do whatever you want. I think the only reason games dominate the medium is because of the hardware. It's very difficult to do productivity in VR, but comparatively easy to put a player into a simulated world to have fun.

BlueTemplar 6y ago
> You can target both Oculus and SteamVR with these APIs This hardly makes it better, and insures that VR will still be locked to other proprietary (and potentially spywareish) platforms (just not Windows).
- throwaway3699 6y ago
  The point is that you can create a full FOSS runtime (+ drivers) for VR that will be compatible with most software out of the box. I think there was a project called OSVR that tried to do this, but I'm not sure how that's going. You could probably bring a lot of this work into the kernel if VR becomes popular enough. I've found that Valve is pretty good when it comes to respecting their users. SteamVR software isn't even DRM'd and can run without Steam.
  - BlueTemplar 6y ago
    > So, a few early adopters of the technology started developing an alternative implementation of [Valve's] OpenVR called “Open Source Virtual Reality (OSVR) which even had open-source hardware projects. Sadly, its development stalled and even today its main site is offline. Ah, I didn't know that SteamVR could run without Steam. Can Alyx (once installed) ? Still, this leaves the issue is that being theoretically Steam-free isn't enough, as the experience with AOSP/Google Play Store has shown. Valve might be 'pretty good' with their own users, but still the result of Steam's dominance is that it's getting harder and harder to get mods and play multiplayer outside of Steam.
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Half Life Alyx cannot run without Steam due to Steam DRM, like most other steam games. It's very, very easy to remove the DRM yourself, though. It's more a legal formality than an attempt at DRM and is pretty much never updated.
      - throwaway45349 6y ago
        Yeah, Steam's DRM implementation is ancient and well known to be compromised. They never really push it, but publishers demand it to "feel" safe. The biggest hook is that many people prefer games on Steam due to the added benefits.
      - BlueTemplar 6y ago
        A large fraction of Valve's own games are DRM-free (despite using Steamworks when launched through Steam !) : https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_Games_on_Steam#Valve https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_DRM-Free_G... Also, there isn't a single Steam DRM, but multiple versions/layers : https://www.gog.com/forum/general/how_to_run_steam_games_offline_forever_tutorial/page1 https://www.gog.com/forum/general/how_to_run_steam_games_off... The worst of which are Valve's own Custom Executable Generation, and Denuvo, which is third-party but (last time I checked) Steam doesn't warn you about as being a 3rd-party DRM. Both of which make a game machine-specific.
  - account42 6y ago
    > The point is that you can create a full FOSS runtime (+ drivers) for VR that will be compatible with most software out of the box. I think there was a project called OSVR that tried to do this, but I'm not sure how that's going. Also OpenHMD [0] and Monado [1]. [0] http://www.openhmd.net/ http://www.openhmd.net/ [1] https://monado.freedesktop.org/ https://monado.freedesktop.org/
    - gcblkjaidfj 6y ago
      The point is that it have zero real-world hardware support. Yeah you can buy playstation controllers and hack them, but that is not realistic. (to quote the state of the art on the links you posted) Would write graphical interface code if a color monitor and a mouse required the end user to solder stuff and compile kernel drivers? While every game already had those two things but tied down to the facebook app? ..that's how insane VR is today (and for the foreseeable future)

amelius 6y ago

Yes, it's the same with GPUs, mostly made for gaming, but lots of people use them for totally different purposes.

gcblkjaidfj 6y ago
except that VR nobody can use for anything other than game. your GPU and integrated GPU run somewhat slower on opensource OS and drivers. Heck you can compute on them on cloud providers. Anything VR can only run if you install a game studio disguised tracker and social network apps in VR headset driver's clothing, in windows only. Even the other comment misleading saying "you already can" is only a convoluted step to provide content that will be run in the above game-restricted setting.

pjmlp 6y ago

I only install games via the Windows Store, zero root kits, all nicely sandboxed.