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despite extraodinary good data regarding human experience of living in isolated/enclosed conolies, we persist on believing the fundmantal obstacle to livign on

despite extraodinary good data regarding human experience of living in isolated/enclosed conolies, we persist on believing the fundmantal obstacle to livign on the moon is technological.

wincy 6y ago
Neuralink will make sure we don’t feel lonely on the colony.
- wizzwizz4 6y ago
  Neuralink (or, at least, the designs I've seen) would be worse than VR, and it's a little amusing to consider the idea that it might somehow directly prevent lonelinesss.
  - handol 6y ago
    You just load up the map for the kind of lobotomy you want to simulate and say good bye to loneliness.
    - faeyanpiraat 6y ago
      Turning humans into emotionless robot workers via brain implants. If it is always-on, it’s like slavery. If you can turn it on/off, it’s like schizophrenia. This whole thing brings up so many practical phylosophical and ethical questions.
    - wizzwizz4 6y ago
      • Neuralink – or, at least, the prototypes I've seen – can't do that. • I wouldn't let anything that could anywhere near my brain, and I doubt I'm the only one.
ben_w 6y ago
IMO it won’t count as a proper colony until it is big enough to not feel isolated.
DylanBohlender 6y ago
Assuming we establish communication relays between the Earth and Moon, Moon dwellers would probably be able to use the internet (albeit probably with a laggy connection by Earth standards). While remote socialization during the pandemic has been far from ideal, I think our last year's experience collectively has proven that socializing digitally is somewhat possible and might prevent (or at least mitigate) the worst effects of isolation. If there are any physicists/engineers reading this that have the appropriate expertise to potentially work on something like it, I'd be super curious to hear your thoughts about how it could work. Assuming we're supporting a Moon colony of nontrivial scale (~100 people maybe?), what would the experience of connecting to Earth's internet be like for the colonists? What infrastructure would we need to create to make it possible and/or improve it?
- avmich 6y ago
  I guess moon dwellers would be careful not to overload the space around them with radio waves, so the bulk of communications with Earth will be in focused optical beams. NASA had good results testing that with small optical trancivers. Major cloud providers would perhaps have some presence on the Moon, so anybody could watch videos available over the Internet from local access points, no delays. Most communications at some point would also be local; talking with Earth will incur that unavoidable delay.
- lsllc 6y ago
  Moon-Earth ping time would something like 2580ms [0]. If anyone remembers the days when phone calls to Australia were via geosynchronous satellite (vs undersea cables), there was maybe ~500ms delay and that was annoying enough, although you got used to it. TBH 2580ms for many applications would be fine (e.g. youtube, netflix, social media, github, chat/slack/teams etc). If you take sci-fi as inspiration (e.g. The Expanse!), we might see less "realtime/two-way" voice/video chat and more one way "vmail" type messaging when RTT is too great for realtime. [0] https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-ping-between-earth-and-the-moon https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-ping-between-earth-and-the...
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
But we've addressed this repeatedly, with submarine crews, Antarctic populations, iceberg outposts. It's manageable.
xwdv 6y ago
Personally I believe the fundamental obstacle is gravitational.
- GartzenDeHaes 6y ago
  It seems as if low gravity on Mars would make it a one-way trip.
- thoughtstheseus 6y ago
  Same, all other obstacles are within the range of current tech. Long-term (decades & human development) habitation under reduced gravity is not understood. Hopefully it’s not a problem.
  - avmich 6y ago
    Gravity can be relatively easily improved with large rotating modules on the surface of the Moon or under the surface. Not for the very first colonists though, but if we're serious about colonizing, we'll get to solve this soon.
monadic3 6y ago
I'd guess the barrier is personal wealth for most people. That's certainly what I blame my lack of landing on the moon thus far on. As for being excited about paying for someone else living on the moon rather than more immediate social concerns—fat chance of that.

despite extraodinary good data regarding human experience of living in isolated/enclosed conolies, we persist on believing the fundmantal obstacle to livign on the moon is technological.

wincy 6y ago

Neuralink will make sure we don’t feel lonely on the colony.

wizzwizz4 6y ago
Neuralink (or, at least, the designs I've seen) would be worse than VR, and it's a little amusing to consider the idea that it might somehow directly prevent lonelinesss.
- handol 6y ago
  You just load up the map for the kind of lobotomy you want to simulate and say good bye to loneliness.
  - faeyanpiraat 6y ago
    Turning humans into emotionless robot workers via brain implants. If it is always-on, it’s like slavery. If you can turn it on/off, it’s like schizophrenia. This whole thing brings up so many practical phylosophical and ethical questions.
  - wizzwizz4 6y ago
    • Neuralink – or, at least, the prototypes I've seen – can't do that. • I wouldn't let anything that could anywhere near my brain, and I doubt I'm the only one.

ben_w 6y ago

IMO it won’t count as a proper colony until it is big enough to not feel isolated.

DylanBohlender 6y ago

Assuming we establish communication relays between the Earth and Moon, Moon dwellers would probably be able to use the internet (albeit probably with a laggy connection by Earth standards). While remote socialization during the pandemic has been far from ideal, I think our last year's experience collectively has proven that socializing digitally is somewhat possible and might prevent (or at least mitigate) the worst effects of isolation. If there are any physicists/engineers reading this that have the appropriate expertise to potentially work on something like it, I'd be super curious to hear your thoughts about how it could work. Assuming we're supporting a Moon colony of nontrivial scale (~100 people maybe?), what would the experience of connecting to Earth's internet be like for the colonists? What infrastructure would we need to create to make it possible and/or improve it?

avmich 6y ago
I guess moon dwellers would be careful not to overload the space around them with radio waves, so the bulk of communications with Earth will be in focused optical beams. NASA had good results testing that with small optical trancivers. Major cloud providers would perhaps have some presence on the Moon, so anybody could watch videos available over the Internet from local access points, no delays. Most communications at some point would also be local; talking with Earth will incur that unavoidable delay.
lsllc 6y ago
Moon-Earth ping time would something like 2580ms [0]. If anyone remembers the days when phone calls to Australia were via geosynchronous satellite (vs undersea cables), there was maybe ~500ms delay and that was annoying enough, although you got used to it. TBH 2580ms for many applications would be fine (e.g. youtube, netflix, social media, github, chat/slack/teams etc). If you take sci-fi as inspiration (e.g. The Expanse!), we might see less "realtime/two-way" voice/video chat and more one way "vmail" type messaging when RTT is too great for realtime. [0] https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-ping-between-earth-and-the-moon https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-ping-between-earth-and-the...

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

But we've addressed this repeatedly, with submarine crews, Antarctic populations, iceberg outposts. It's manageable.

xwdv 6y ago

Personally I believe the fundamental obstacle is gravitational.

GartzenDeHaes 6y ago
It seems as if low gravity on Mars would make it a one-way trip.
thoughtstheseus 6y ago
Same, all other obstacles are within the range of current tech. Long-term (decades & human development) habitation under reduced gravity is not understood. Hopefully it’s not a problem.
- avmich 6y ago
  Gravity can be relatively easily improved with large rotating modules on the surface of the Moon or under the surface. Not for the very first colonists though, but if we're serious about colonizing, we'll get to solve this soon.

monadic3 6y ago

I'd guess the barrier is personal wealth for most people. That's certainly what I blame my lack of landing on the moon thus far on. As for being excited about paying for someone else living on the moon rather than more immediate social concerns—fat chance of that.