18 ms·

"Possible toxicity of something that we deem safe could be an explanation." This is a needlessly complex explanation. Very low physical activity rates are the

by rsync 6y ago

"Possible toxicity of something that we deem safe could be an explanation." This is a needlessly complex explanation. Very low physical activity rates are the likely cause. A majority of men in the US are obese or overweight[1] and, culturally, Americans barely even walk. Testosterone levels are linked to physical activity.[2][3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States#Prevalence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_the_United_States#P... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4706091/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4706091/ [3] https://www.cpandr.co.uk/2018/08/22/the-impact-exercise-has-on-testosterone-levels-in-males-and-females/ https://www.cpandr.co.uk/2018/08/22/the-impact-exercise-has-...

offtop5 6y ago
I think America is one of the most obese countries on earth. I completely blame the food. Even eating absolute junk in Europe I noticed I lost 5 or 6 pounds over 2 weeks. Here if I eat junk food for 3 days my weight jumps by 7 pounds. I am a bit dismayed with all the attempts to normalize obesity in the US. I was morbidly obese up until I got serious about my weight in my early 20s. You can read all the dating books you want, but getting in shape is the only thing that works. It's much easier to hop on Reddit and complain though. I'm very optimistic I'll be able to move to a healthier country once I retire at 40 or so. Not exactly easy to stay in shape when this country tries to pump us all full of corn syrup
- rsync 6y ago
  "I completely blame the food. Even eating absolute junk in Europe I noticed I lost 5 or 6 pounds over 2 weeks." I don't. Certainly it doesn't help and, of course, Americans should eat much better than they do, but ... I think the most important factor is that our built and cultural environment are constructed to make us obese. If one does not live in a modern city center one barely ever walks. Most Americans sit all day - at a desk or in a car. Further, many Americans are 1-2 generations removed from "the farm" and are still heavily influenced by habits like "three square meals per day" that made great sense on the farm and make no sense at all in the city. We're bad at being urban. I contrast us with people I see who are good at being urban. The old Chinese women in the park doing Tai Chi every morning. The 70+ woman I saw running (running!) to get the bus in Zurich. The Spanish people I lived with who sort-of ate one big meal every day at 14:00 ... We'll get there ...
  - opportune 6y ago
    I agree that there is a big cultural factor here. I wish people focused on this more. So many people want to look at correlations like income:BMI that don’t generalize to other countries or cultures. Really what they expose are cultural and societal idiosyncrasies, much more than they expose that “cheap food is not healthy”. Of course, that is less appealing to an epidemiologist because the cause and effect is less clear and has much greater implications than recommending more exercise.
  - offtop5 6y ago
    >We'll get there ... You can also write an article for the Huffington Post arguing it's impossible to ever lose weight. I'm not calling for fat shamming, but you can't be both obese and healthy. You can't really be obese ( over a certain point anyway) and be happy. When I was over 300 pounds every day was an experience in pain. But it's considered rude even for doctors to say you need to lose weight. I was fortunate enough that an alternative medicine provider told me to just lose weight. And that said, I'm even reluctant to make the argument above since there's a lot of really angry people who will try to misconcue it and call me a monster or something. But I've been morbidly obese, and I'm in shape now ( still trying to lose that last 10 pounds ) . Life is better now in every single way.
    - rchaud 6y ago
      > You can't really be obese ( over a certain point anyway) and be happy. When I was over 300 pounds every day was an experience in pain. So if that's the case, why does it matter what the Huffington Post says? I'm not morbidly obese, so perhaps I've missed the pro-obesity PR. A fashion magazine might give a cover to an obese model once a year, but the other 11 months all seem to have the same rail thin models that have dominated since the '80s. Same goes for TV and movies. Producers wouldn't hire a fat guy to play Mark David Chapman, it'd be an easier sell to get a fit actor and have him balloon up to that desired weight. The only obese poeople of renown in our society are older politicians and the rich, i.e. people that do not care about meeting society's beauty standards.
      - 6y ago
- pstrateman 6y ago
  > I think America is one of the most obese countries on earth. Yes but not by a very wide margin. [1] Average BMI in the US is 28.5, Saudi Arabia is the same, Mexico is 28.1, New Zealand is 27.9, UK is 27.3, Canada is 27.2. My point is that the impression that the US is unreasonably fat compared to the rest of the world is mostly just bias. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass_index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass...
  - martinald 6y ago
    I think you are just pointing out very car reliant countries. London has good public transit, but the rest is extremely car dependant. This shows IMO in obesity rates - they are significantly lower in London than the rest of the UK.
    - nicoburns 6y ago
      Not sure that the UK is that car reliant. I guess in rural areas, but that's true in most countries. In cities, not at all.
      - jacobolus 6y ago
        62% of all trips in the UK are made by car, compared to 26% by foot, 6% by bus, 3% by train, 2% by bicycle. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/787488/tsgb-2018-report-summaries.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... It is not as entirely car dominated as the USA, but I think it's pretty fair to call it "car reliant".
      - iainmerrick 6y ago
        It very much depends on the city. London has excellent public transport (and is horrible for driving), other cities are much more mixed.
    - boc 6y ago
      Same thing in many US cities where walking is the norm. The other major factor is wealth. Richer people can afford higher quality food. Poor people generally consume more calories from junk foods and sugary drinks, which are staples of drive-throughs and fast food chains.
- partiallypro 6y ago
  I was in Germany for some time, I thought I would lose weight walking everywhere and eating differently; but I actually didn't lose a single pound. I don't know if muscle replaced fat, but I felt I looked the same and weighed the same. I was truly baffled. During the early pandemic, I stopped drinking for 3-4 months...and still didn't lose any weight. I honestly don't understand the human body.
  - tayo42 6y ago
    I think you need to count calories to really know what your eating. I did it as an experiment for a week, it really interesting to see how fast you blow through your daily calories snacking or adding sauce
    - nl 6y ago
      Yes, do this. It's shocking how much of your calorie budget a sugared soft drink has.
      - ashtonkem 6y ago
        Strangely, it’s both most of your calorie budget, and none of it at the same time. Soft drinks have a ton of calories which have to go somewhere; we all know that. The paradox is that the human brain does not generally treat liquid calories as calories. So even though you might drink down 300 calories of soda, your brain will not adjust your hunger levels to match. This is obviously very bad.
        nl 6y ago
        Oh yes, satiety of food is a hidden thing people don't talk about. Eat warm porridge and on average you will feel twice as full as the equivalent calories in white bread: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b3cf/3b7d71a7485e6355e49b2e4c86db54b25046.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b3cf/3b7d71a7485e6355e49b2e...
  - XorNot 6y ago
    Genuine question: do you have biscuits, confectionery or ice cream in your home normally? The most shocking thing to me when I first moved alone was how easy it was too eat a ton of sugar, without realising it till after. My solution these days is to just ensure its not there, and commit to not getting takeaway (easy if I think about all the money I save). Even doing all that, I still have habits I need to keep up: eating toast too often is a problem, for example. I've eliminated peanut butter entirely. Don't eat lunch when I'm at a desk job and replace it with just mid afternoon coffee to keep me going. The human body is stupidly efficient, unfortunately.
- krisroadruck 6y ago
  "You can read all the dating books you want, but getting in shape is the only thing that works." I don't know my guy. I'm 39, weigh 280lbs at 5'9 but am married to a smart and beautiful women a decade younger than me and 150lbs lighter than me. It's not a sugar daddy thing either, she makes more than I do. Not everyone is shallow and a great sense of humor / shared interests / good personality is more than enough for plenty of people. That said, being fit certainly ups the odds in your favor.
  - fossuser 6y ago
    A large component is the dating market you’re in. If you’re a man in DC, NYC, or some rural town you’ll have more luck. Bay Area? Zero chance.
- VRay 6y ago
  > You can read all the dating books you want, but getting in shape is the only thing that works. Counterpoint: I got in great shape in my early 20s, but didn't have much luck with dating because I was still a "Reddit niceguys"-style jerk Later on I stopped being a jerk, and even though I ballooned back to a very stately American weight I had way better luck with dating. Including "attractive females" as a young involuntarily-celibate gentleman might say
  - xnyan 6y ago
    Agree. Try to be a good person and be honest. Treat your hygiene as important, clean up your home and maybe think a little bit about some clothes that look nice on you. That's all you need to do.
    - creamytaco 6y ago
      Assuming you're at least moderately physically attractive. And even then, the quality of partners you can attract in terms of looks is non-linearly decreasing as your own physical attractiveness drops. OkCupid studies have proven that women find 80% of men below average looking. If you don't happen to be at least average in terms of looks, things are looking grim.
      - VRay 6y ago
        This is like looking at hiring statistics and deciding you'll never get a FAANG job unless you went to a top-tier university Going on a dating site and messaging attractive women there is like sending resumes into the online job sites for Google/Facebook/etc. MAYBE you'll get a response, but more likely you're just wasting your time. In the working world, you can build up your skills and network to get a referral In the dating world, you can improve your hygeine/personality and get an introduction via mutual friends/family/family's friends/family's friends' coworkers.
        creamytaco 6y ago
        And why do you think that would be any different? Do you seriously believe women will suddenly view a physically unattractive male as sexually desirable just because they got an introduction? It doesn't happen. Raw sexual attraction is not something one builds towards with friend/family introductions/referrals and good hygiene. It's a visceral, almost animal-like condition that manifests at the drop of a hat and physical appearance (face, height, build) is _the_ most (if not the only) important attribute. Those that have won the genetic lottery are smooth sailing. The sky is the limit. Those that are average have to put in work to get results (and there are definite limits, they will hit a ceiling). Those that have lost the genetic lottery are kneecapped from the get-go and they're looking at a vastly diminished set of possible partners and opportunities.
- agumonkey 6y ago
  I wonder how much is due to regulation about inner dosage. I hear that mcdonalds recipees varies a lot between Europe and USA, saying that USA have way more everything in it, whereas in EU limits are imposed. That or USA citizens really like to eat overly sweet and fat stuff.
  - whatever1 6y ago
    The portions at the USA are insane. When I first saw the "large size" side drinks at fast foods I started laughing. In Europe the large size is equivalent to the US Medium. This is also the case in restaurants. I get it that many people pack left over to go, but the portions served are comically large. For someone with broken "I am full" sensor, it is easy to consume the whole portion at once, and then get a dessert.
    - bluGill 6y ago
      I find that in most US restaurants the portions are a bit small and I need the desert to fill me up. People always remark about how much I eat though. Most of them completely fail to notice that I eat only at meals, so even though it seems like I'm eating a lot, over the course of a day I'm getting no more than them. However most of my calories are not empty snacks (even counting the desert). I cook most of my meals at home though, which allows me to get enough without needing desert every meal. Plus my cooking tastes better since it is real flavor not added sugar/salt.
    - Talanes 6y ago
      >When I first saw the "large size" side drinks at fast foods I started laughing. In Europe the large size is equivalent to the US Medium. Depending on where exactly you were, this is the experience of a lot of Americans compared to the sizes from their childhoods. A lot of places missed the point on Super-Size Me and just renamed their sizes to eliminate extra-larges around that time. So a 16oz shifted from being medium to being small.
- xur17 6y ago
  > Here if I eat junk food for 3 days my weight jumps by 7 pounds. If you are gaining 7 pounds in 3 days, I imagine the vast majority is just water weight, which can probably be attributed to the salt levels in the junk food more than anything else.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- brbrodude 6y ago
  Food is definitely a big factor. Here in Brasil it's not like we're super healthy eating, we are much more into real food than America, it was the impression I was left with. Some things just seem arbitrarily made junkier for no reason. My colleague who lived in Italy through masters and doctors and recently came back comments on how in Brazil we eat way more meat than europeans, as an additional point of comparison.
  - nradov 6y ago
    It's tough to eat enough meat to get really fat. Most people who try a carnivore diet end up losing weight. (I am not necessarily recommending that people follow a carnivore diet because it might have other negative effects.)
    - brbrodude 6y ago
      Here the diet is kind of meat and a lot of carbs at all meals(rice & beans in portuguese actually is a term meaning "the basics"), prefferably with a lot garlic and salt.
- jimbob45 6y ago
  So you’re blaming the FDA for allowing something into American food that the EU doesn’t?
- outworlder 6y ago
  > I completely blame the food I don't completely blame the food itself. It's more about food habits. One of the things I found very weird was American portion sizes. Go to any restaurant and plates were easily double the amount I was previously used to. I felt bad leaving almost half of a plate every time. And then... I got used to it. But also very fat. With similar levels of sedentarism so it's not only about exercise levels. And frankly, while exercise is healthy, you don't burn that much energy with cardio. Every time I do the calculations I'm shocked. From a weight loss perspective, you're better off reducing food quantity (and the proportion of highly energy dense food types) than just increasing exercise. Unless you are at marathon-levels, that is. Increasing muscle mass is also time well spent (still pales in comparison to just eating less). Need to do it for the health benefits anyway, but it's easy to see why people get frustrated. The kind of food served must have an impact too. Most places, if you are even offered a salad, it's awful. It's either tasteless or downright nasty and you can only make it palatable by overdosing on dressings. It seems that the nastiest tasting greens are chosen - don't even get me started on the "spring mix". So many people just don't eat salad and I can't blame them. Kids are right to rebel against their vegetables. The American-style breakfast is delicious. It's just that most options are caloric bombs. This is obviously not applicable if you don't eat out with any regularity. But that was the norm pre-pandemic, whether it's a restaurant or a $5 meal at Taco Bell with the nastiest (but tasty to our lizard brain) calories imaginable. Given that many people in the US don't really have the habit (or the employer doesn't give them time) of having lunch, burgers and the like are common. Fine, let's eat healthy then and stop complaining. Let's start with fruits. ... and they suck. Apples are tasteless. Bananas are terrible. Mangos are a shadow of what they are supposed to be. Some grapes are ok. Berries are good (but not cheap in most places!). And so on. Fruits seem to be selected for appearance, easy of transport and shelf life, nevermind if they taste like used cardboard. Except berries and even then, IFF they are sourced locally. You can make a decent salad with ingredients found in any supermarket, so there's that. Less convenient - you need to make your own with tastier greens(whatever your preference is!) rather than grabbing a box of spring mix that tastes like grass that was mowed a week ago. Add some lemon, vinegar and a very small amount of salt and it's all you need. Meat is essentially the same everywhere(barring some food regulations). Can be affordable if one is ok with eating based on what's available, as prices fluctuate like crazy. You _can_ eat healthy in the US. But you'll be battling: affordability, time, convenience and cultural norms. You need to check the labels on everything too, the corn syrup comment is relevant.
- llsf 6y ago
  Just came back from 3 weeks in France, over holiday season. I stayed with my parents, and my dad is a cook... so I did eat well :) Still managed to lose 2 pounds. In the 3 days I was back here, I managed to eat a burger and pizza. I guess I could have politely say no. But clearly the processed food here in US is ubiquitous and cheap, so difficult to escape. No idea if this is the reason of lower testosterone. But I realize that simple food based on fresh products would go a long way.
- react_burger38 6y ago
  It's mostly the food. It's not like people in other countries get that much more exercise than we do. (Source: lived in Ecuador for two years). I watched this youtube video recently about recipes for cutting (weightlifting term for a diet that makes you lose weight) and eating some of the food has helped me lose some weight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86ieFuh_4Vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86ieFuh_4Vs
- znpy 6y ago
  related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lkCsKXAxfo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lkCsKXAxfo (and other videos of the series)
- chaostheory 6y ago
  I blame the food packaging. BPA and all sorts of synthetic hormones leeching from plastic has invaded both our food and drink.
  - souprock 6y ago
    Kids almost always eat and drink from plastic. It used to be glass and metal. Little kids are really surrounded by lots of fresh new plastic.
- KraftKacke 6y ago
  In fat tissue testosterone gets converted into estrogen via aromatase, also. Not sure if the estrogenic effects are systemic, but the T is lost from circulation.
  - soonnow 6y ago
    Oh interesting. I find that when you look how people move, ie walk or sit down, you'll often find that men with big bellies move very deliberate, not forceful at all.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  "Here if I eat junk food for 3 days my weight jumps by 7 pounds." That's impossible you would have to eat 8167 extra calories a day to do that, you are doing something else like drinking lots of water or something.
  - wrycoder 6y ago
    I see the same, but typically five pounds. I believe it’s my glycogen storage increasing, along with water weight due to the excess salt. When I stop, it comes right off again in a couple of days.
- kristopolous 6y ago
  FWIW, oil prices have a really high (negative) correlation with obesity There's weirdly enough, quite a bit of scholarly literature on this. Here's a decent survey, scroll down to see the links https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/gas-prices-effects-health-driving-economics-policy/ https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/g... There's also studies that show increasing gasoline sales tax is predictive of future obesity prevalence (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415832/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415832/). The correlation appears robust enough to generally use petroleum prices as an indicator of obesity prevalence as measured through BMI. They're all pretty careful to note that "the relationship between gasoline prices and physical activity must be empirically determined". Maybe, for instance, people purchase less food or go out to eat less frequently in high gas-price places. (See https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.1550-8528.1999.tb00715.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.1550-8528....) Maybe people spend less time commuting in high petroleum prices areas, which increases well being and decreases obesity prevalence (see https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11524-012-9678-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11524-012-9678-6) Maybe petroleum-based fertilizers lead to high obesity (see https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/prospective-association-between-consumption-frequency-of-organic-food-and-body-weight-change-risk-of-overweight-or-obesity-results-from-the-nutrinetsante-study/1B800116CA8AFD21D26B6DF877EF7AC1 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...). Maybe the psychological activity of driving affects metabolism (see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091743515003655 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009174351...). Maybe this is all p-hacking and it's nonsense. Regardless, if scholarship is to be believed, moving to a place with high gas prices might help you lose weight. Yes, it still sounds nutty to me as well.
- kgin 6y ago
  Whatever it is, it started in the mid 70s. You can see the exact moment obesity rates launched upwards and never looked back. https://www.niddk.nih.gov/-/media/Images/Health-Information/Other-Child-Pages/Health-Statistics/adults_bmi_949x703.jpg?imbypass=true https://www.niddk.nih.gov/-/media/Images/Health-Information/...
- thelittleone 6y ago
  "Anything that is more than our necessity is poison. It may be power, wealth, hunger, ego, greed, laziness, love or ambition..." Rumi
- soonnow 6y ago
  Also keep in mind that in vast swathes of America, kids are brought up with low value high calorie food. If you are used to junk food, that's chemically engineered to appeal to our caveman instincts it's incredibly tough to switch later in life to a healthy food lifestyle. This pandemic of shitty food starts with the kids and their tastes being set at a young age.
- _the_inflator 6y ago
  I disagree. Don't blame USA, after all you decide what goes into your mouth. Whole Foods ain't junk and Walmart has a decent plant based area. If you wanna find junk, you get it - everywhere. Europe is on the rise: https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-diseases/obesity/data-and-statistics#:~:text=Based%20on%20the%20latest%20estimates,steadily%20from%201990%20to%202008 https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-di.... No way to, pun not intended, sugar-coat this fact. Sorry to say that, but "moving to a healthier country" is an excuse. Come on, dude! :)
- CodeGlitch 6y ago
  The fact that America can't even do chocolate right tells you everything you need to know about the food. Having been to America several times, I've eaten some amazing restaurant food, but the stuff bought in supermarkets is where I think the problem lies.
- andomar 6y ago
  > Not exactly easy to stay in shape when this country tries to pump us all full of corn syrup That's it I think. Advertising has become much more effective over the past 40 years. Humans can simply not resist. There should be advertising for healthy eating, to steer people to healthy food.
  - mlrtime 6y ago
    There should be advertising for healthy eating, to steer people to healthy food. The problem now is we have #fatfobia that shames people for advertising their healthy lifestyle.
- T-A 6y ago
  > I think America is one of the most obese countries on earth. World obesity rankings are curiously topped by a bunch of small Pacific island nations and Kuwait, followed by the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_r...
Reason077 6y ago
Perhaps you missed the part where they controlled for "confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity" So, after correcting for BMI, physical activity, etc, there was still a very significant decline in testosterone between 1999-2000 and 2015-2016.
- rsync 6y ago
  I see that and I'm glad they included it, but ... Was 1999-2000 that golden age when we all threshed the fields by hand and steered the plows on foot ? I remember people being quite sedentary and obese then and I don't know that an activity comparison to 1999-2000 has any utility ... EDIT: OK, I am thinking about this backwards - if, as I suggest, people were just as sedentary in the first period as they are in the second, then the T drop begs a different explanation. As you suggest, they also corrected for age. So, perhaps, my instinct is wrong. I would still look very closely at the (adjusted, corrected) physical activity before drawing any other conclusions ...
  - haihaibye 6y ago
    1999-2000 is a period in the past when they had measurements. I mean ideally they'd have huge numbers of testosterone samples from all of human history, but what are they going to do?
  - thejoeflow 6y ago
    it's a reference point? The article isn't comparing to some platonic ideal of what men's testosterone levels should be...it's just pointing out a statistically significant decrease in those levels over a period of 20 years
- cgh 6y ago
  Yeah, but a few paragraphs later, we have this: "According to Lokeshwar, potential causes for these declines could be increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins." My personal, totally unsupported hypothesis: society is simply kinder and gentler now. As evidenced by the high testosterone in prison populations, this hormone responds to environmental threats of potential violence.
Wolfenstein98k 6y ago
The study in OP controlled for age and weight.
zetazzed 6y ago
The first line in the article is: "The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index." So obesity may be a factor, but it does not seem to be the only factor.
eloff 6y ago
They said this accounted for most of the effect. But if you look at the study the effect persists after controlling for both BMI and exercise. There must be more to it.
s1artibartfast 6y ago
Stress is also linked to reduced testosterone. Sexual behaviors can radically change testosterone as well.
- tartoran 6y ago
  That’s a reminder that the world has become more and more stressed out. I was reading somewhere that women handle stress better possibly because of estrogen.
sebmellen 6y ago
That may be part of the explanation, but read this: > Lokeshwar noted that even men with a normal BMI (18.5-24.9) had declining total testosterone levels (P < .05) during the same time frames.
s3r3nity 6y ago
Study controls for this, though: > After controlling for confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity—total testosterone was lower among men in the later (2011-2016) versus earlier (1999-2000) cycles (P < 0.001)
jiggawatts 6y ago
Something that is fairly well known in weightlifting circles is that "lifting heavy" will boost testosterone levels for about a day. This is something I can anecdotally confirm: A few years ago my libido was low and I had borderline depression. After my lifts exceeded 100 kg (220 lb), there was a noticeable positive correlation between my libido and the deadlift days.
- bigpumpkin 6y ago
  Yep. Lifting heavy is also good because it doesn't take very long and it's far easier to go high intensity for a few reps than medium intensity for many reps. Just gotta be careful to have proper form and not injure ourselves.
throwawayboise 6y ago
Personal experience agrees. I'm over 50. Started lifting weights regularly about a year ago. Lost about 15-20 lbs of fat. Consuming way less beer and junk food. Have not had levels tested, but noticing more signs of increased testosterone, increased libido, waking up with an erection, etc.
chrisjarvis 6y ago
I believe this to be the right answer. Ive been around this discussion a lot and everyone seems to want to blame the whole phenomenon on some chemical or another, "xenoestrogens" are thrown around a lot. Yes, there are more unnatural chemical compounds entering our bodies than in the past (also important to examine) but addressing the terribly unhealthy lives most of us lead is obviously the first step.
kazinator 6y ago
This is not so simple. Low testosterone cannot always be fixed by exercise. There are men who exercise and yet have low T. In the abstract of your [3] we see a problem. Quote: > If you have a low level of fitness you are likely to have a greater increase in testosterone response to exercise. As your body adjusts to the demands of exercise the testosterone response will decrease. Basically you have to be unfit to get a T boost from lifting some weights. If you're already fit and adapted to exercise, more exercise won't fix the T problem.
User23 6y ago
Literally the first line from the article: “The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index.”
ilikeerp 6y ago
"The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index."
steve_adams_86 6y ago
I mean, every problem in my life can be fairly neatly explained my a lack of physical activity. Most AWESOME days I have can be neatly explained by higher than usual activity. Our bodies need to move. Isn’t there strong evidence that we can’t even function properly without exercise? I mean, basic functions like regular waste disposal/cell regeneration. Circulation is insufficient without some added pressure and agitation. All kinds of stuff. We are too fat and lazy, period. It’s an “easy” fix, but it’s also really, really, really hard. Man. I used to run 50km per week, now I don’t even walk 5km. So much kid stuff, work stuff, house stuff.
base128 6y ago
BPA acts as synthetic estrogen in the human body and therefore has a less significant but similar effect as being on female hormone therapy. But sugar, or more specifically insulin can reduce testosterone in the blood as well. Sugar will also make you put on weight more easily and body fat will also increase estrogen.
wutbrodo 6y ago
The parent comment both says that this is a global phenomenon and links to a study (not on Americans) whose _abstract_ says "There was a highly significant age-independent decline in total testosterone in the first and second decades of the twenty-first century. The decline was unlikely to be explained by increasing rates of obesity".
0xcafe4a11 6y ago
I think there multiple things working together: - High yield, less nutritious crops - Climate change - less physical activity https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrients-carbon-dioxide-000511/ https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrie...
S_A_P 6y ago
When I went to Europe in 2006 I dropped 15 pounds in 3 weeks. I was hardly obese (call it pudge) but those three weeks changed my life completely. Encouraged by the start, I began to exercise and get in shape. That lasted until a severe foot breakage kept me from running for about a year which put most of the weight back on. I noticed that in Europe where I was(Austria, Hungary, Germany) there was very little sugar in restaurant food and most of the time it resembled an elaborate home cooked meal. Here in the states sugar and high carbs for carbs sake are in everything.
nswest23 6y ago
> The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index.
chansiky 6y ago
My guess is this, but I would have to say, we need to see the data on women as well if thats the case.

by rsync 6y ago

offtop5 6y ago

I think America is one of the most obese countries on earth. I completely blame the food. Even eating absolute junk in Europe I noticed I lost 5 or 6 pounds over 2 weeks. Here if I eat junk food for 3 days my weight jumps by 7 pounds. I am a bit dismayed with all the attempts to normalize obesity in the US. I was morbidly obese up until I got serious about my weight in my early 20s. You can read all the dating books you want, but getting in shape is the only thing that works. It's much easier to hop on Reddit and complain though. I'm very optimistic I'll be able to move to a healthier country once I retire at 40 or so. Not exactly easy to stay in shape when this country tries to pump us all full of corn syrup

rsync 6y ago
"I completely blame the food. Even eating absolute junk in Europe I noticed I lost 5 or 6 pounds over 2 weeks." I don't. Certainly it doesn't help and, of course, Americans should eat much better than they do, but ... I think the most important factor is that our built and cultural environment are constructed to make us obese. If one does not live in a modern city center one barely ever walks. Most Americans sit all day - at a desk or in a car. Further, many Americans are 1-2 generations removed from "the farm" and are still heavily influenced by habits like "three square meals per day" that made great sense on the farm and make no sense at all in the city. We're bad at being urban. I contrast us with people I see who are good at being urban. The old Chinese women in the park doing Tai Chi every morning. The 70+ woman I saw running (running!) to get the bus in Zurich. The Spanish people I lived with who sort-of ate one big meal every day at 14:00 ... We'll get there ...
- opportune 6y ago
  I agree that there is a big cultural factor here. I wish people focused on this more. So many people want to look at correlations like income:BMI that don’t generalize to other countries or cultures. Really what they expose are cultural and societal idiosyncrasies, much more than they expose that “cheap food is not healthy”. Of course, that is less appealing to an epidemiologist because the cause and effect is less clear and has much greater implications than recommending more exercise.
- offtop5 6y ago
  >We'll get there ... You can also write an article for the Huffington Post arguing it's impossible to ever lose weight. I'm not calling for fat shamming, but you can't be both obese and healthy. You can't really be obese ( over a certain point anyway) and be happy. When I was over 300 pounds every day was an experience in pain. But it's considered rude even for doctors to say you need to lose weight. I was fortunate enough that an alternative medicine provider told me to just lose weight. And that said, I'm even reluctant to make the argument above since there's a lot of really angry people who will try to misconcue it and call me a monster or something. But I've been morbidly obese, and I'm in shape now ( still trying to lose that last 10 pounds ) . Life is better now in every single way.
  - rchaud 6y ago
    > You can't really be obese ( over a certain point anyway) and be happy. When I was over 300 pounds every day was an experience in pain. So if that's the case, why does it matter what the Huffington Post says? I'm not morbidly obese, so perhaps I've missed the pro-obesity PR. A fashion magazine might give a cover to an obese model once a year, but the other 11 months all seem to have the same rail thin models that have dominated since the '80s. Same goes for TV and movies. Producers wouldn't hire a fat guy to play Mark David Chapman, it'd be an easier sell to get a fit actor and have him balloon up to that desired weight. The only obese poeople of renown in our society are older politicians and the rich, i.e. people that do not care about meeting society's beauty standards.
    - 6y ago
pstrateman 6y ago
> I think America is one of the most obese countries on earth. Yes but not by a very wide margin. [1] Average BMI in the US is 28.5, Saudi Arabia is the same, Mexico is 28.1, New Zealand is 27.9, UK is 27.3, Canada is 27.2. My point is that the impression that the US is unreasonably fat compared to the rest of the world is mostly just bias. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass_index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_body_mass...
- martinald 6y ago
  I think you are just pointing out very car reliant countries. London has good public transit, but the rest is extremely car dependant. This shows IMO in obesity rates - they are significantly lower in London than the rest of the UK.
  - nicoburns 6y ago
    Not sure that the UK is that car reliant. I guess in rural areas, but that's true in most countries. In cities, not at all.
    - jacobolus 6y ago
      62% of all trips in the UK are made by car, compared to 26% by foot, 6% by bus, 3% by train, 2% by bicycle. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/787488/tsgb-2018-report-summaries.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... It is not as entirely car dominated as the USA, but I think it's pretty fair to call it "car reliant".
    - iainmerrick 6y ago
      It very much depends on the city. London has excellent public transport (and is horrible for driving), other cities are much more mixed.
  - boc 6y ago
    Same thing in many US cities where walking is the norm. The other major factor is wealth. Richer people can afford higher quality food. Poor people generally consume more calories from junk foods and sugary drinks, which are staples of drive-throughs and fast food chains.
partiallypro 6y ago
I was in Germany for some time, I thought I would lose weight walking everywhere and eating differently; but I actually didn't lose a single pound. I don't know if muscle replaced fat, but I felt I looked the same and weighed the same. I was truly baffled. During the early pandemic, I stopped drinking for 3-4 months...and still didn't lose any weight. I honestly don't understand the human body.
- tayo42 6y ago
  I think you need to count calories to really know what your eating. I did it as an experiment for a week, it really interesting to see how fast you blow through your daily calories snacking or adding sauce
  - nl 6y ago
    Yes, do this. It's shocking how much of your calorie budget a sugared soft drink has.
    - ashtonkem 6y ago
      Strangely, it’s both most of your calorie budget, and none of it at the same time. Soft drinks have a ton of calories which have to go somewhere; we all know that. The paradox is that the human brain does not generally treat liquid calories as calories. So even though you might drink down 300 calories of soda, your brain will not adjust your hunger levels to match. This is obviously very bad.
      - nl 6y ago
        Oh yes, satiety of food is a hidden thing people don't talk about. Eat warm porridge and on average you will feel twice as full as the equivalent calories in white bread: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b3cf/3b7d71a7485e6355e49b2e4c86db54b25046.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b3cf/3b7d71a7485e6355e49b2e...
- XorNot 6y ago
  Genuine question: do you have biscuits, confectionery or ice cream in your home normally? The most shocking thing to me when I first moved alone was how easy it was too eat a ton of sugar, without realising it till after. My solution these days is to just ensure its not there, and commit to not getting takeaway (easy if I think about all the money I save). Even doing all that, I still have habits I need to keep up: eating toast too often is a problem, for example. I've eliminated peanut butter entirely. Don't eat lunch when I'm at a desk job and replace it with just mid afternoon coffee to keep me going. The human body is stupidly efficient, unfortunately.
krisroadruck 6y ago
"You can read all the dating books you want, but getting in shape is the only thing that works." I don't know my guy. I'm 39, weigh 280lbs at 5'9 but am married to a smart and beautiful women a decade younger than me and 150lbs lighter than me. It's not a sugar daddy thing either, she makes more than I do. Not everyone is shallow and a great sense of humor / shared interests / good personality is more than enough for plenty of people. That said, being fit certainly ups the odds in your favor.
- fossuser 6y ago
  A large component is the dating market you’re in. If you’re a man in DC, NYC, or some rural town you’ll have more luck. Bay Area? Zero chance.
VRay 6y ago
> You can read all the dating books you want, but getting in shape is the only thing that works. Counterpoint: I got in great shape in my early 20s, but didn't have much luck with dating because I was still a "Reddit niceguys"-style jerk Later on I stopped being a jerk, and even though I ballooned back to a very stately American weight I had way better luck with dating. Including "attractive females" as a young involuntarily-celibate gentleman might say
- xnyan 6y ago
  Agree. Try to be a good person and be honest. Treat your hygiene as important, clean up your home and maybe think a little bit about some clothes that look nice on you. That's all you need to do.
  - creamytaco 6y ago
    Assuming you're at least moderately physically attractive. And even then, the quality of partners you can attract in terms of looks is non-linearly decreasing as your own physical attractiveness drops. OkCupid studies have proven that women find 80% of men below average looking. If you don't happen to be at least average in terms of looks, things are looking grim.
    - VRay 6y ago
      This is like looking at hiring statistics and deciding you'll never get a FAANG job unless you went to a top-tier university Going on a dating site and messaging attractive women there is like sending resumes into the online job sites for Google/Facebook/etc. MAYBE you'll get a response, but more likely you're just wasting your time. In the working world, you can build up your skills and network to get a referral In the dating world, you can improve your hygeine/personality and get an introduction via mutual friends/family/family's friends/family's friends' coworkers.
      - creamytaco 6y ago
        And why do you think that would be any different? Do you seriously believe women will suddenly view a physically unattractive male as sexually desirable just because they got an introduction? It doesn't happen. Raw sexual attraction is not something one builds towards with friend/family introductions/referrals and good hygiene. It's a visceral, almost animal-like condition that manifests at the drop of a hat and physical appearance (face, height, build) is _the_ most (if not the only) important attribute. Those that have won the genetic lottery are smooth sailing. The sky is the limit. Those that are average have to put in work to get results (and there are definite limits, they will hit a ceiling). Those that have lost the genetic lottery are kneecapped from the get-go and they're looking at a vastly diminished set of possible partners and opportunities.
agumonkey 6y ago
I wonder how much is due to regulation about inner dosage. I hear that mcdonalds recipees varies a lot between Europe and USA, saying that USA have way more everything in it, whereas in EU limits are imposed. That or USA citizens really like to eat overly sweet and fat stuff.
- whatever1 6y ago
  The portions at the USA are insane. When I first saw the "large size" side drinks at fast foods I started laughing. In Europe the large size is equivalent to the US Medium. This is also the case in restaurants. I get it that many people pack left over to go, but the portions served are comically large. For someone with broken "I am full" sensor, it is easy to consume the whole portion at once, and then get a dessert.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    I find that in most US restaurants the portions are a bit small and I need the desert to fill me up. People always remark about how much I eat though. Most of them completely fail to notice that I eat only at meals, so even though it seems like I'm eating a lot, over the course of a day I'm getting no more than them. However most of my calories are not empty snacks (even counting the desert). I cook most of my meals at home though, which allows me to get enough without needing desert every meal. Plus my cooking tastes better since it is real flavor not added sugar/salt.
  - Talanes 6y ago
    >When I first saw the "large size" side drinks at fast foods I started laughing. In Europe the large size is equivalent to the US Medium. Depending on where exactly you were, this is the experience of a lot of Americans compared to the sizes from their childhoods. A lot of places missed the point on Super-Size Me and just renamed their sizes to eliminate extra-larges around that time. So a 16oz shifted from being medium to being small.
xur17 6y ago
> Here if I eat junk food for 3 days my weight jumps by 7 pounds. If you are gaining 7 pounds in 3 days, I imagine the vast majority is just water weight, which can probably be attributed to the salt levels in the junk food more than anything else.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
brbrodude 6y ago
Food is definitely a big factor. Here in Brasil it's not like we're super healthy eating, we are much more into real food than America, it was the impression I was left with. Some things just seem arbitrarily made junkier for no reason. My colleague who lived in Italy through masters and doctors and recently came back comments on how in Brazil we eat way more meat than europeans, as an additional point of comparison.
- nradov 6y ago
  It's tough to eat enough meat to get really fat. Most people who try a carnivore diet end up losing weight. (I am not necessarily recommending that people follow a carnivore diet because it might have other negative effects.)
  - brbrodude 6y ago
    Here the diet is kind of meat and a lot of carbs at all meals(rice & beans in portuguese actually is a term meaning "the basics"), prefferably with a lot garlic and salt.
jimbob45 6y ago
So you’re blaming the FDA for allowing something into American food that the EU doesn’t?
outworlder 6y ago
> I completely blame the food I don't completely blame the food itself. It's more about food habits. One of the things I found very weird was American portion sizes. Go to any restaurant and plates were easily double the amount I was previously used to. I felt bad leaving almost half of a plate every time. And then... I got used to it. But also very fat. With similar levels of sedentarism so it's not only about exercise levels. And frankly, while exercise is healthy, you don't burn that much energy with cardio. Every time I do the calculations I'm shocked. From a weight loss perspective, you're better off reducing food quantity (and the proportion of highly energy dense food types) than just increasing exercise. Unless you are at marathon-levels, that is. Increasing muscle mass is also time well spent (still pales in comparison to just eating less). Need to do it for the health benefits anyway, but it's easy to see why people get frustrated. The kind of food served must have an impact too. Most places, if you are even offered a salad, it's awful. It's either tasteless or downright nasty and you can only make it palatable by overdosing on dressings. It seems that the nastiest tasting greens are chosen - don't even get me started on the "spring mix". So many people just don't eat salad and I can't blame them. Kids are right to rebel against their vegetables. The American-style breakfast is delicious. It's just that most options are caloric bombs. This is obviously not applicable if you don't eat out with any regularity. But that was the norm pre-pandemic, whether it's a restaurant or a $5 meal at Taco Bell with the nastiest (but tasty to our lizard brain) calories imaginable. Given that many people in the US don't really have the habit (or the employer doesn't give them time) of having lunch, burgers and the like are common. Fine, let's eat healthy then and stop complaining. Let's start with fruits. ... and they suck. Apples are tasteless. Bananas are terrible. Mangos are a shadow of what they are supposed to be. Some grapes are ok. Berries are good (but not cheap in most places!). And so on. Fruits seem to be selected for appearance, easy of transport and shelf life, nevermind if they taste like used cardboard. Except berries and even then, IFF they are sourced locally. You can make a decent salad with ingredients found in any supermarket, so there's that. Less convenient - you need to make your own with tastier greens(whatever your preference is!) rather than grabbing a box of spring mix that tastes like grass that was mowed a week ago. Add some lemon, vinegar and a very small amount of salt and it's all you need. Meat is essentially the same everywhere(barring some food regulations). Can be affordable if one is ok with eating based on what's available, as prices fluctuate like crazy. You _can_ eat healthy in the US. But you'll be battling: affordability, time, convenience and cultural norms. You need to check the labels on everything too, the corn syrup comment is relevant.
llsf 6y ago
Just came back from 3 weeks in France, over holiday season. I stayed with my parents, and my dad is a cook... so I did eat well :) Still managed to lose 2 pounds. In the 3 days I was back here, I managed to eat a burger and pizza. I guess I could have politely say no. But clearly the processed food here in US is ubiquitous and cheap, so difficult to escape. No idea if this is the reason of lower testosterone. But I realize that simple food based on fresh products would go a long way.
react_burger38 6y ago
It's mostly the food. It's not like people in other countries get that much more exercise than we do. (Source: lived in Ecuador for two years). I watched this youtube video recently about recipes for cutting (weightlifting term for a diet that makes you lose weight) and eating some of the food has helped me lose some weight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86ieFuh_4Vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86ieFuh_4Vs
znpy 6y ago
related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lkCsKXAxfo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lkCsKXAxfo (and other videos of the series)
chaostheory 6y ago
I blame the food packaging. BPA and all sorts of synthetic hormones leeching from plastic has invaded both our food and drink.
- souprock 6y ago
  Kids almost always eat and drink from plastic. It used to be glass and metal. Little kids are really surrounded by lots of fresh new plastic.
KraftKacke 6y ago
In fat tissue testosterone gets converted into estrogen via aromatase, also. Not sure if the estrogenic effects are systemic, but the T is lost from circulation.
- soonnow 6y ago
  Oh interesting. I find that when you look how people move, ie walk or sit down, you'll often find that men with big bellies move very deliberate, not forceful at all.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
"Here if I eat junk food for 3 days my weight jumps by 7 pounds." That's impossible you would have to eat 8167 extra calories a day to do that, you are doing something else like drinking lots of water or something.
- wrycoder 6y ago
  I see the same, but typically five pounds. I believe it’s my glycogen storage increasing, along with water weight due to the excess salt. When I stop, it comes right off again in a couple of days.
kristopolous 6y ago
FWIW, oil prices have a really high (negative) correlation with obesity There's weirdly enough, quite a bit of scholarly literature on this. Here's a decent survey, scroll down to see the links https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/gas-prices-effects-health-driving-economics-policy/ https://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/energy/g... There's also studies that show increasing gasoline sales tax is predictive of future obesity prevalence (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415832/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5415832/). The correlation appears robust enough to generally use petroleum prices as an indicator of obesity prevalence as measured through BMI. They're all pretty careful to note that "the relationship between gasoline prices and physical activity must be empirically determined". Maybe, for instance, people purchase less food or go out to eat less frequently in high gas-price places. (See https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.1550-8528.1999.tb00715.x https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/j.1550-8528....) Maybe people spend less time commuting in high petroleum prices areas, which increases well being and decreases obesity prevalence (see https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11524-012-9678-6 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11524-012-9678-6) Maybe petroleum-based fertilizers lead to high obesity (see https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-nutrition/article/prospective-association-between-consumption-frequency-of-organic-food-and-body-weight-change-risk-of-overweight-or-obesity-results-from-the-nutrinetsante-study/1B800116CA8AFD21D26B6DF877EF7AC1 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...). Maybe the psychological activity of driving affects metabolism (see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091743515003655 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S009174351...). Maybe this is all p-hacking and it's nonsense. Regardless, if scholarship is to be believed, moving to a place with high gas prices might help you lose weight. Yes, it still sounds nutty to me as well.
kgin 6y ago
Whatever it is, it started in the mid 70s. You can see the exact moment obesity rates launched upwards and never looked back. https://www.niddk.nih.gov/-/media/Images/Health-Information/Other-Child-Pages/Health-Statistics/adults_bmi_949x703.jpg?imbypass=true https://www.niddk.nih.gov/-/media/Images/Health-Information/...
thelittleone 6y ago
"Anything that is more than our necessity is poison. It may be power, wealth, hunger, ego, greed, laziness, love or ambition..." Rumi
soonnow 6y ago
Also keep in mind that in vast swathes of America, kids are brought up with low value high calorie food. If you are used to junk food, that's chemically engineered to appeal to our caveman instincts it's incredibly tough to switch later in life to a healthy food lifestyle. This pandemic of shitty food starts with the kids and their tastes being set at a young age.
_the_inflator 6y ago
I disagree. Don't blame USA, after all you decide what goes into your mouth. Whole Foods ain't junk and Walmart has a decent plant based area. If you wanna find junk, you get it - everywhere. Europe is on the rise: https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-diseases/obesity/data-and-statistics#:~:text=Based%20on%20the%20latest%20estimates,steadily%20from%201990%20to%202008 https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/noncommunicable-di.... No way to, pun not intended, sugar-coat this fact. Sorry to say that, but "moving to a healthier country" is an excuse. Come on, dude! :)
CodeGlitch 6y ago
The fact that America can't even do chocolate right tells you everything you need to know about the food. Having been to America several times, I've eaten some amazing restaurant food, but the stuff bought in supermarkets is where I think the problem lies.
andomar 6y ago
> Not exactly easy to stay in shape when this country tries to pump us all full of corn syrup That's it I think. Advertising has become much more effective over the past 40 years. Humans can simply not resist. There should be advertising for healthy eating, to steer people to healthy food.
- mlrtime 6y ago
  There should be advertising for healthy eating, to steer people to healthy food. The problem now is we have #fatfobia that shames people for advertising their healthy lifestyle.
T-A 6y ago
> I think America is one of the most obese countries on earth. World obesity rankings are curiously topped by a bunch of small Pacific island nations and Kuwait, followed by the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_r...

Reason077 6y ago

Perhaps you missed the part where they controlled for "confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity" So, after correcting for BMI, physical activity, etc, there was still a very significant decline in testosterone between 1999-2000 and 2015-2016.

rsync 6y ago
I see that and I'm glad they included it, but ... Was 1999-2000 that golden age when we all threshed the fields by hand and steered the plows on foot ? I remember people being quite sedentary and obese then and I don't know that an activity comparison to 1999-2000 has any utility ... EDIT: OK, I am thinking about this backwards - if, as I suggest, people were just as sedentary in the first period as they are in the second, then the T drop begs a different explanation. As you suggest, they also corrected for age. So, perhaps, my instinct is wrong. I would still look very closely at the (adjusted, corrected) physical activity before drawing any other conclusions ...
- haihaibye 6y ago
  1999-2000 is a period in the past when they had measurements. I mean ideally they'd have huge numbers of testosterone samples from all of human history, but what are they going to do?
- thejoeflow 6y ago
  it's a reference point? The article isn't comparing to some platonic ideal of what men's testosterone levels should be...it's just pointing out a statistically significant decrease in those levels over a period of 20 years
cgh 6y ago
Yeah, but a few paragraphs later, we have this: "According to Lokeshwar, potential causes for these declines could be increased obesity/BMI, assay variations, diet/phytoestrogens, declined exercise and physical activity, fat percentage, marijuana use, and environmental toxins." My personal, totally unsupported hypothesis: society is simply kinder and gentler now. As evidenced by the high testosterone in prison populations, this hormone responds to environmental threats of potential violence.

Wolfenstein98k 6y ago

The study in OP controlled for age and weight.

zetazzed 6y ago

The first line in the article is: "The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index." So obesity may be a factor, but it does not seem to be the only factor.

eloff 6y ago

They said this accounted for most of the effect. But if you look at the study the effect persists after controlling for both BMI and exercise. There must be more to it.

s1artibartfast 6y ago

Stress is also linked to reduced testosterone. Sexual behaviors can radically change testosterone as well.

tartoran 6y ago
That’s a reminder that the world has become more and more stressed out. I was reading somewhere that women handle stress better possibly because of estrogen.

sebmellen 6y ago

That may be part of the explanation, but read this: > Lokeshwar noted that even men with a normal BMI (18.5-24.9) had declining total testosterone levels (P < .05) during the same time frames.

s3r3nity 6y ago

Study controls for this, though: > After controlling for confounders—including year of study, age, race, BMI, comorbidity status, alcohol and smoking use, and level of physical activity—total testosterone was lower among men in the later (2011-2016) versus earlier (1999-2000) cycles (P < 0.001)

jiggawatts 6y ago

Something that is fairly well known in weightlifting circles is that "lifting heavy" will boost testosterone levels for about a day. This is something I can anecdotally confirm: A few years ago my libido was low and I had borderline depression. After my lifts exceeded 100 kg (220 lb), there was a noticeable positive correlation between my libido and the deadlift days.

bigpumpkin 6y ago
Yep. Lifting heavy is also good because it doesn't take very long and it's far easier to go high intensity for a few reps than medium intensity for many reps. Just gotta be careful to have proper form and not injure ourselves.

throwawayboise 6y ago

Personal experience agrees. I'm over 50. Started lifting weights regularly about a year ago. Lost about 15-20 lbs of fat. Consuming way less beer and junk food. Have not had levels tested, but noticing more signs of increased testosterone, increased libido, waking up with an erection, etc.

chrisjarvis 6y ago

I believe this to be the right answer. Ive been around this discussion a lot and everyone seems to want to blame the whole phenomenon on some chemical or another, "xenoestrogens" are thrown around a lot. Yes, there are more unnatural chemical compounds entering our bodies than in the past (also important to examine) but addressing the terribly unhealthy lives most of us lead is obviously the first step.

kazinator 6y ago

This is not so simple. Low testosterone cannot always be fixed by exercise. There are men who exercise and yet have low T. In the abstract of your [3] we see a problem. Quote: > If you have a low level of fitness you are likely to have a greater increase in testosterone response to exercise. As your body adjusts to the demands of exercise the testosterone response will decrease. Basically you have to be unfit to get a T boost from lifting some weights. If you're already fit and adapted to exercise, more exercise won't fix the T problem.

User23 6y ago

Literally the first line from the article: “The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index.”

ilikeerp 6y ago

"The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index."

steve_adams_86 6y ago

I mean, every problem in my life can be fairly neatly explained my a lack of physical activity. Most AWESOME days I have can be neatly explained by higher than usual activity. Our bodies need to move. Isn’t there strong evidence that we can’t even function properly without exercise? I mean, basic functions like regular waste disposal/cell regeneration. Circulation is insufficient without some added pressure and agitation. All kinds of stuff. We are too fat and lazy, period. It’s an “easy” fix, but it’s also really, really, really hard. Man. I used to run 50km per week, now I don’t even walk 5km. So much kid stuff, work stuff, house stuff.

base128 6y ago

BPA acts as synthetic estrogen in the human body and therefore has a less significant but similar effect as being on female hormone therapy. But sugar, or more specifically insulin can reduce testosterone in the blood as well. Sugar will also make you put on weight more easily and body fat will also increase estrogen.

wutbrodo 6y ago

The parent comment both says that this is a global phenomenon and links to a study (not on Americans) whose _abstract_ says "There was a highly significant age-independent decline in total testosterone in the first and second decades of the twenty-first century. The decline was unlikely to be explained by increasing rates of obesity".

0xcafe4a11 6y ago

I think there multiple things working together: - High yield, less nutritious crops - Climate change - less physical activity https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrients-carbon-dioxide-000511/ https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrie...

S_A_P 6y ago

When I went to Europe in 2006 I dropped 15 pounds in 3 weeks. I was hardly obese (call it pudge) but those three weeks changed my life completely. Encouraged by the start, I began to exercise and get in shape. That lasted until a severe foot breakage kept me from running for about a year which put most of the weight back on. I noticed that in Europe where I was(Austria, Hungary, Germany) there was very little sugar in restaurant food and most of the time it resembled an elaborate home cooked meal. Here in the states sugar and high carbs for carbs sake are in everything.

nswest23 6y ago

> The decline in total testosterone was observed even among men with normal body mass index.

chansiky 6y ago

My guess is this, but I would have to say, we need to see the data on women as well if thats the case.