5 ms·

> I wonder if this is actually a manifestation of population-wide testosterone drop. Is it possible for the cause-and-effect to be backwards? A change in socia

by jolmg 6y ago

> I wonder if this is actually a manifestation of population-wide testosterone drop. Is it possible for the cause-and-effect to be backwards? A change in socially acceptable behavior causing the testosterone drop?

mumblemumble 6y ago
That was my first thought. Inspired by hazy memories of some 20 year old episode of This American Life talking about (IIRC, which I probably don't) men's blood testosterone levels rising when they engage in aggressive behavior or take part in competitive activities.
- EvanAnderson 6y ago
  The most likely episode is #220, "Testosterone": https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220
- hnick 6y ago
  I was curious if this related to myself sitting on a couch playing multiplayer games. Apparently it even relates to chess, so the activity doesn't need to be physical. I wonder if being "in person" makes a big difference though. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2786687?seq=1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/2786687?seq=1
wassenaar10 6y ago
> Is it possible for the cause-and-effect to be backwards? A change in socially acceptable behavior causing the testosterone drop? How exactly do you propose that a change in socially acceptable behavior in the span of about 40 years had a tangible effect on hormone levels? It's not like someone can say "oh getting into fistfights isn't cool anymore, better reduce my testosterone levels". Maybe if we were talking about a timespan an order of magnitude or two longer then sexual selection (high testosterone and more violent men being less favored as mates) could come into play, but again for a time span of 40-50 years that's just not feasible. Also, socially acceptable or not, violent and aggressive men typically don't have problems finding sexual partners; Ted Bundy, the notorious serial killer and rapist, was known to receive many love-letters in prison, even after the details of his crimes (exclusively against women and girls) were made public and he was able to marry and conceive a child while incarcerated.
- throwaway09223 6y ago
  It sounds like you're assuming evolutionary pressure as a mechanism of change, is that correct? Have you considered that the body may produce different hormone levels as a result of our mental state? For example, when startled, the body produces a hormone called adrenaline. We know with certainty that mental state is responsible for certain types of hormone production. I honestly do not know if there might be a link between testosterone production specifically and mental state, but I took this to be the question that the above poster was asking.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    I believe there was a study that found that sports fans' testosterone levels were lower after their preferred team lost.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jolmg 6y ago
  > It's not like someone can say "oh getting into fistfights isn't cool anymore, better reduce my testosterone levels". I was actually considering something like that. That if you engage in more aggressive behavior regularly for a long period of time, your testosterone levels might stay higher on average than if you didn't.
- ben_w 6y ago
  Apparently exercise can increase testosterone, which implies fistfights (especially frequent ones) would too; however, this article also says obesity can reduce testosterone, and I suspect that is a bigger factor: https://www.webmd.com/men/features/exercise-and-testosterone https://www.webmd.com/men/features/exercise-and-testosterone
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    Lower testosterone probably causes fat gain too. It wouldn’t surprise me if we eventually find out that something environmental is causing both of those phenomena.
yannyu 6y ago
This is an interesting hypothesis. The silver fox domestication experiment shows that selecting for behavioral traits can result in significant changes to physical traits as well: https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12052-018-0090-x https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.118...
- smogcutter 6y ago
  Key word there being “selecting”, which makes this a pretty implausible explanation for something we can observe over a couple decades.
  - mcphage 6y ago
    Hormone production is something that the body controls. It doesn't require multiple generations or genetic selection.
    - whatshisface 6y ago
      I don't get what you're saying, every phenotype is something "that the body controls."
      - XorNot 6y ago
        The point is that it's not a genetically determined effect. Testosterone in your body fluctuates throughout the course of a single day, based on what happens to you in that day. So at a societal level, we'd expect some general zeitgeist based average to fall out of other factors, potentially.
  - echelon 6y ago
    Unless production is controlled by the environment rather than strictly genetic factors. This wouldn't be a genetic argument then.
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
surge 6y ago
I don't think drunken bar fights was ever socially acceptable anywhere but the lowest of social strata. I'd blame lifestyle changes and BPA far before I thought exercising normal "gentlemanly" restraint caused T to dip. Also, your theory doesn't explain the anomaly of all the large muscular men who you can tell by physical appearance have high T and who are very kind and not aggressive. Bar fights have a lot more to do with environmental factors that influence behavior, like how they were raised, the same socioeconomic factors that contribute to violent crime, etc.
- jolmg 6y ago
  > doesn't explain the anomaly of all the large muscular men who you can tell by physical appearance have high T and who are very kind and not aggressive. I don't know the numbers, but that would mean that high T does not cause aggression, not that aggression does not cause high T.
  - Gibbon1 6y ago
    Bodybuilders think high estrogen levels cause roid rage. Might be lies they tell themselves, might be a valid observation. On the other hand normal levels testosterone supposedly saturate receptors. Big exception is muscles.
- cat199 6y ago
  > I don't think drunken bar fights was ever socially acceptable anywhere but the lowest of social strata. Not how it fits in the discussion, but I'd put duelling in the same category, and this was clearly acceptable among elites when it was acceptable overall
  - irrational 6y ago
    Is it really similar? Duels would be scheduled in advanced. There would be rules to be followed. I don't think I ever read about a duel involving fisticuffs. I suppose you could be saying that a duel is the posh version of a drunken bar fight, but that's like saying that a moderated debate is the posh version of a profanity filled screaming match in a bar parking lot.
SulfurHexaFluri 6y ago
Its also very likely that this all matches up with the creation and then banning of leaded fuels in cars.

by jolmg 6y ago

mumblemumble 6y ago

That was my first thought. Inspired by hazy memories of some 20 year old episode of This American Life talking about (IIRC, which I probably don't) men's blood testosterone levels rising when they engage in aggressive behavior or take part in competitive activities.

EvanAnderson 6y ago
The most likely episode is #220, "Testosterone": https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220 https://www.thisamericanlife.org/220
hnick 6y ago
I was curious if this related to myself sitting on a couch playing multiplayer games. Apparently it even relates to chess, so the activity doesn't need to be physical. I wonder if being "in person" makes a big difference though. https://www.jstor.org/stable/2786687?seq=1 https://www.jstor.org/stable/2786687?seq=1

wassenaar10 6y ago

> Is it possible for the cause-and-effect to be backwards? A change in socially acceptable behavior causing the testosterone drop? How exactly do you propose that a change in socially acceptable behavior in the span of about 40 years had a tangible effect on hormone levels? It's not like someone can say "oh getting into fistfights isn't cool anymore, better reduce my testosterone levels". Maybe if we were talking about a timespan an order of magnitude or two longer then sexual selection (high testosterone and more violent men being less favored as mates) could come into play, but again for a time span of 40-50 years that's just not feasible. Also, socially acceptable or not, violent and aggressive men typically don't have problems finding sexual partners; Ted Bundy, the notorious serial killer and rapist, was known to receive many love-letters in prison, even after the details of his crimes (exclusively against women and girls) were made public and he was able to marry and conceive a child while incarcerated.

throwaway09223 6y ago
It sounds like you're assuming evolutionary pressure as a mechanism of change, is that correct? Have you considered that the body may produce different hormone levels as a result of our mental state? For example, when startled, the body produces a hormone called adrenaline. We know with certainty that mental state is responsible for certain types of hormone production. I honestly do not know if there might be a link between testosterone production specifically and mental state, but I took this to be the question that the above poster was asking.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  I believe there was a study that found that sports fans' testosterone levels were lower after their preferred team lost.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jolmg 6y ago
> It's not like someone can say "oh getting into fistfights isn't cool anymore, better reduce my testosterone levels". I was actually considering something like that. That if you engage in more aggressive behavior regularly for a long period of time, your testosterone levels might stay higher on average than if you didn't.
ben_w 6y ago
Apparently exercise can increase testosterone, which implies fistfights (especially frequent ones) would too; however, this article also says obesity can reduce testosterone, and I suspect that is a bigger factor: https://www.webmd.com/men/features/exercise-and-testosterone https://www.webmd.com/men/features/exercise-and-testosterone
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  Lower testosterone probably causes fat gain too. It wouldn’t surprise me if we eventually find out that something environmental is causing both of those phenomena.

yannyu 6y ago

This is an interesting hypothesis. The silver fox domestication experiment shows that selecting for behavioral traits can result in significant changes to physical traits as well: https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12052-018-0090-x https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.118...

smogcutter 6y ago
Key word there being “selecting”, which makes this a pretty implausible explanation for something we can observe over a couple decades.
- mcphage 6y ago
  Hormone production is something that the body controls. It doesn't require multiple generations or genetic selection.
  - whatshisface 6y ago
    I don't get what you're saying, every phenotype is something "that the body controls."
    - XorNot 6y ago
      The point is that it's not a genetically determined effect. Testosterone in your body fluctuates throughout the course of a single day, based on what happens to you in that day. So at a societal level, we'd expect some general zeitgeist based average to fall out of other factors, potentially.
- echelon 6y ago
  Unless production is controlled by the environment rather than strictly genetic factors. This wouldn't be a genetic argument then.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago

surge 6y ago

I don't think drunken bar fights was ever socially acceptable anywhere but the lowest of social strata. I'd blame lifestyle changes and BPA far before I thought exercising normal "gentlemanly" restraint caused T to dip. Also, your theory doesn't explain the anomaly of all the large muscular men who you can tell by physical appearance have high T and who are very kind and not aggressive. Bar fights have a lot more to do with environmental factors that influence behavior, like how they were raised, the same socioeconomic factors that contribute to violent crime, etc.

jolmg 6y ago
> doesn't explain the anomaly of all the large muscular men who you can tell by physical appearance have high T and who are very kind and not aggressive. I don't know the numbers, but that would mean that high T does not cause aggression, not that aggression does not cause high T.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  Bodybuilders think high estrogen levels cause roid rage. Might be lies they tell themselves, might be a valid observation. On the other hand normal levels testosterone supposedly saturate receptors. Big exception is muscles.
cat199 6y ago
> I don't think drunken bar fights was ever socially acceptable anywhere but the lowest of social strata. Not how it fits in the discussion, but I'd put duelling in the same category, and this was clearly acceptable among elites when it was acceptable overall
- irrational 6y ago
  Is it really similar? Duels would be scheduled in advanced. There would be rules to be followed. I don't think I ever read about a duel involving fisticuffs. I suppose you could be saying that a duel is the posh version of a drunken bar fight, but that's like saying that a moderated debate is the posh version of a profanity filled screaming match in a bar parking lot.

SulfurHexaFluri 6y ago

Its also very likely that this all matches up with the creation and then banning of leaded fuels in cars.