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That's why the solution is liability: Companies will keep leaving unchecked algorithms responsible for this until they can go to jail for doing so. Adtech is a

That's why the solution is liability: Companies will keep leaving unchecked algorithms responsible for this until they can go to jail for doing so. Adtech is a cancer and it's time to cut it out using every legislative and regulatory option we have. Put Mark Zuckerberg and Sundar Pichai behind bars and the problem will correct after that.

brundolf 6y ago
Liability is tricky because a) it seems like it would be hard to prove, and b) it could get too broad, hampering internet expression in general. I tend to think a specific law against automated content-curation would be better - that's the true source of problems - though it's obviously still really hard to define (arguably anything a computer does is "automated"). The simplest solution might be privacy protections, which (among other things) would indirectly kneecap targeted content curation, due to a lack of data.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  People have been taught by big tech companies' PR teams that any regulation will hurt the Internet, but I don't believe it's remotely true. Internet companies currently enjoy near complete immunity to content they distribute, but when such things have gone, the Internet will readjust.
  - r00fus 6y ago
    Either we legislate big tech or big tech will drive/own the process that creates legislation (arguably the latter is already happening).
newacct583 6y ago
For clarity: liability solutions are civil and aren't going to put anyone behind bars. But yes, that's absolutely part of the puzzle. Companies who made money by peddling armor and ammo and gear into an extremist community they were simultaneously trying to moderate need to be held partially responsible. And that goes for the apocalyptic end-times mess that has infested the gun and gun-peripheral industries too. If you spend your advertising budget telling your customers they need your products to "protect their freedoms" then you don't get a pass if they end up sacking congress to do it.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  Criminal liability isn't an impossible thing to do.
TYPE_FASTER 6y ago
Are the ads illegal? Or the products they are advertising? The website for Soldier of Fortune advertises similar products, should they be shut down? How about the print magazine, should that be shut down as well? There are a lot of sites out there that publish much more objectionable content. Should we shut all of them down as well?
- dahart 6y ago
  > Are the ads illegal? [...] should they be shut down? Probably not, but insurrection is. The ad isn’t the problem here, the context & juxtaposition is the problem. It’s not a call to shut down ads, it’s a call to avoid accidentally (or worse, intentionally) supporting illegal speech and violence.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Probably not, but insurrection is. If Facebook is distributing illegal messages inciting, or that constitute part of a conspiracy aimed at, insurrection, that is obviously a problem. What legal ads it shows next to such messages is, if a legitimate concern at all, orders of magnitude less important. If the content is not illegal, and the ads are not illegal, I’m not sure what the issue is at all.
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      Advertisements are also messaging. Take a news article about a governer starting a new coronavirus lockdown. This article having ads for hand sanitizer, and this article having ads for zip-ties, are two very different messages.
    - colpabar 6y ago
      >If the content is not illegal, and the ads are not illegal, I’m not sure what the issue is at all. Have you ever considered that what is illegal can be changed, and that the commenters you are replying to may feel that some part of this industry should be made illegal? It used to be legal to advertise cigarettes to children, and now it's not. If you want to argue that it will be difficult to write and pass legislation that actually accomplishes anything meaningful, I'd agree. But to say "no laws are being broken so who cares?" is just so unproductive. Something has to be done here, and I think I would rather have it be done at a government level so that I can at least feel like I had some say in it.
sramam 6y ago
> Put Mark Zuckerberg and Sundar Pichai behind bars and the problem will correct after that. Why not the CEOs of the companies using the targeted keywords/demographic information? The "it's not the gun that kills, it's the people who kill" argument?
- manigandham 6y ago
  How is that argument? The people advertising and selling are not the people buying and using them. It's different people.
  - tremon 6y ago
    Yes, but Facebook and Google are neither of those. They're just the platform where the advertisers and their victims connect. I think the parent was saying this is less to do with the algorithm, and more due to the keywords that the advertisers chose to link their product with.
  - sramam 6y ago
    "gun" = "platform"
    - fakedang 6y ago
      Gun = Facebook platform Hitman (because Gunslinger is too cool) = Facebook company Targets = Capitol Rioters Hirers = Gun companies Bullets = Ads The analogy works because although the companies were unintentionally blanket-targeting their victims, a real world equivalent would still be persecuted. Hence everyone involved should be punished - the rioters (who already are), Facebook the company, the gun companies (albeit in minor fashion like fines because it was stil unintentional), and Facebook the platform (which should be neutered).
- Notorious_BLT 6y ago
  That argument doesn't really hold up when Facebook literally serves the ads. In the metaphor you're suggesting, this would make Facebook the one wielding the gun, and companies buying ads would be whoever hired them to do the job. Hired hitmen are still criminally liable, despite not being the client.
anovikov 6y ago
But only real alternative to adtech is spam: cheap (because of very low effectiveness), flashy rows of banner ads, 1990s style. I am old enough to remember how obnoxious internet experience was ~20 years ago before targeted ads became a thing. It sucked.
- brundolf 6y ago
  I'll take "obnoxious" over "insidiously effective"
- arcticbull 6y ago
  That’s a false dichotomy. The only thing that ad tech gets you is specific targeting on a per user basis. You can still advertise related products and services based on the context in which the ads are presented without needing to know the marital status age range and skin color of the person doing the viewing.
  - anovikov 6y ago
    Thank you, i didn't quite grasp that difference.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  Nothing's fundamentally changed, besides the flashing. Load up a site without Adblock, and you'll have a time warp moment.
- Notorious_BLT 6y ago
  People always act as though companies are somehow entitled to highly effective advertising. I'd prefer a return to those obnoxious ads, they were low-tech and everyone learned to ignore them.
JasonFruit 6y ago
> Adtech is a cancer and it's time to cut it out using every legislative and regulatory option we have. That attitude is the problem: why do we go straight from "This is a problem!" to the government? Aren't there solutions other than making things illegal? Is it just because making things illegal is easier than talking to our neighbors and friends, and giving them peaceful solutions to their problems, doing business locally, and refusing to do business through online ads that use techniques that lead to results like this? People who call for insurrection are usually plenty aware of where to get things like this anyway. It's a bad look for Facebook, sure; but are these ads likely to do real harm? I doubt it. There's plenty of time for sensible people to make a difference without creating more anger by trying to make even more restrictive laws.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  One of the major specific roles of government in a civil society is to maintain and establish the rules of fair play which then allow for a functioning market economy. This represents an inherent compromise.We recognize and appreciate the value that integration and scale provides, and we use the scale of the government to keep it in check. This isn’t just about going out and talking to people who disagree with you. Part of the issue is that the news bubbles that have been created out of news and stories and conspiracies that algorithms know we will react to chip away at our ability to have those conversations with each other. You know, I watch a lot of Fox News, I have some deeply conservative friends and acquaintances and dude they live in a parallel universe. We need the government to collapse those universes together so we can have those conversations in the first place. The ads to harm because they reinforce the structural walls between universes which prevent the necessary conversation from taking place. It’s pretty bad out there dude.
  - JasonFruit 6y ago
    I disagree on your first paragraph, but that's less critical than my disagreement with your second and third. Don't you think that some personal engagement could help bring that parallel universe — and yours — back into sync with reality? You say the algorithms chip away at our ability to have conversations, but I see the opposite: real life has a stronger effect on people's perceptions of truth than on-line bubbles, and can help reassert reality.
manigandham 6y ago
Liability for what exactly? How about people who actually commit bad acts are the ones responsible for it? It seems like you haven't really thought about this and are just personally against adtech and those companies. That's not how rights and legislation should be decided.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  Fostering insurrection for profit is, I am pretty sure, illegal. And I'm pretty sure a prison or worse offense.
  - xkcd-sucks 6y ago
    What about empowering people to protect themselves from violent insurrectionists? If I read in the news that a whole bunch of people planned to converge on my town and shoot at each other, I would certainly consider buying some body armor
    - pardonmesir 6y ago
      So the options are a) Facebook sells tactical equipment to one side, and body armor to the other, or b) They ban these product categories altogether. In context with the fact that Facebook also served up the precise content day after day, year after year, which put people (the whole population) into this inconsistent-with-reality, individually tailored emotional state which is nothing if not a constant reflection and validation of their worst tendencies and pre-dispositions. Think of an honestly shitty person whose problems are of their own creation in every way (for the purpose of this thought experiment, you can even pretend it’s not you). Do you think Facebook ever gave them a series of posts that reflects that? Or would they log on to see all the ways other people are the problem? And that’s everyone. We all have flaws, but this is a profit-driven platform. And if you’re trying to sell someone something, making them feel like the true piece of shit they really are isn’t exactly in the ABCs of how to make a sale, much less at their machine-driven scale. Facebook is basically the automated version of the guy rubbing a boxer’s shoulders in the corner of the ring, whispering in their ear a never-ending slew of made-up things the other guy said so that when the fight starts, he’s angry as can be.
huntermeyer 6y ago
This will never happen. Cigarettes are still being advertised and sold.

brundolf 6y ago

Liability is tricky because a) it seems like it would be hard to prove, and b) it could get too broad, hampering internet expression in general. I tend to think a specific law against automated content-curation would be better - that's the true source of problems - though it's obviously still really hard to define (arguably anything a computer does is "automated"). The simplest solution might be privacy protections, which (among other things) would indirectly kneecap targeted content curation, due to a lack of data.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
People have been taught by big tech companies' PR teams that any regulation will hurt the Internet, but I don't believe it's remotely true. Internet companies currently enjoy near complete immunity to content they distribute, but when such things have gone, the Internet will readjust.
- r00fus 6y ago
  Either we legislate big tech or big tech will drive/own the process that creates legislation (arguably the latter is already happening).

newacct583 6y ago

For clarity: liability solutions are civil and aren't going to put anyone behind bars. But yes, that's absolutely part of the puzzle. Companies who made money by peddling armor and ammo and gear into an extremist community they were simultaneously trying to moderate need to be held partially responsible. And that goes for the apocalyptic end-times mess that has infested the gun and gun-peripheral industries too. If you spend your advertising budget telling your customers they need your products to "protect their freedoms" then you don't get a pass if they end up sacking congress to do it.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
Criminal liability isn't an impossible thing to do.

TYPE_FASTER 6y ago

Are the ads illegal? Or the products they are advertising? The website for Soldier of Fortune advertises similar products, should they be shut down? How about the print magazine, should that be shut down as well? There are a lot of sites out there that publish much more objectionable content. Should we shut all of them down as well?

dahart 6y ago
> Are the ads illegal? [...] should they be shut down? Probably not, but insurrection is. The ad isn’t the problem here, the context & juxtaposition is the problem. It’s not a call to shut down ads, it’s a call to avoid accidentally (or worse, intentionally) supporting illegal speech and violence.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Probably not, but insurrection is. If Facebook is distributing illegal messages inciting, or that constitute part of a conspiracy aimed at, insurrection, that is obviously a problem. What legal ads it shows next to such messages is, if a legitimate concern at all, orders of magnitude less important. If the content is not illegal, and the ads are not illegal, I’m not sure what the issue is at all.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    Advertisements are also messaging. Take a news article about a governer starting a new coronavirus lockdown. This article having ads for hand sanitizer, and this article having ads for zip-ties, are two very different messages.
  - colpabar 6y ago
    >If the content is not illegal, and the ads are not illegal, I’m not sure what the issue is at all. Have you ever considered that what is illegal can be changed, and that the commenters you are replying to may feel that some part of this industry should be made illegal? It used to be legal to advertise cigarettes to children, and now it's not. If you want to argue that it will be difficult to write and pass legislation that actually accomplishes anything meaningful, I'd agree. But to say "no laws are being broken so who cares?" is just so unproductive. Something has to be done here, and I think I would rather have it be done at a government level so that I can at least feel like I had some say in it.

sramam 6y ago

> Put Mark Zuckerberg and Sundar Pichai behind bars and the problem will correct after that. Why not the CEOs of the companies using the targeted keywords/demographic information? The "it's not the gun that kills, it's the people who kill" argument?

manigandham 6y ago
How is that argument? The people advertising and selling are not the people buying and using them. It's different people.
- tremon 6y ago
  Yes, but Facebook and Google are neither of those. They're just the platform where the advertisers and their victims connect. I think the parent was saying this is less to do with the algorithm, and more due to the keywords that the advertisers chose to link their product with.
- sramam 6y ago
  "gun" = "platform"
  - fakedang 6y ago
    Gun = Facebook platform Hitman (because Gunslinger is too cool) = Facebook company Targets = Capitol Rioters Hirers = Gun companies Bullets = Ads The analogy works because although the companies were unintentionally blanket-targeting their victims, a real world equivalent would still be persecuted. Hence everyone involved should be punished - the rioters (who already are), Facebook the company, the gun companies (albeit in minor fashion like fines because it was stil unintentional), and Facebook the platform (which should be neutered).
Notorious_BLT 6y ago
That argument doesn't really hold up when Facebook literally serves the ads. In the metaphor you're suggesting, this would make Facebook the one wielding the gun, and companies buying ads would be whoever hired them to do the job. Hired hitmen are still criminally liable, despite not being the client.

anovikov 6y ago

But only real alternative to adtech is spam: cheap (because of very low effectiveness), flashy rows of banner ads, 1990s style. I am old enough to remember how obnoxious internet experience was ~20 years ago before targeted ads became a thing. It sucked.

brundolf 6y ago
I'll take "obnoxious" over "insidiously effective"
arcticbull 6y ago
That’s a false dichotomy. The only thing that ad tech gets you is specific targeting on a per user basis. You can still advertise related products and services based on the context in which the ads are presented without needing to know the marital status age range and skin color of the person doing the viewing.
- anovikov 6y ago
  Thank you, i didn't quite grasp that difference.
freeone3000 6y ago
Nothing's fundamentally changed, besides the flashing. Load up a site without Adblock, and you'll have a time warp moment.
Notorious_BLT 6y ago
People always act as though companies are somehow entitled to highly effective advertising. I'd prefer a return to those obnoxious ads, they were low-tech and everyone learned to ignore them.

JasonFruit 6y ago

> Adtech is a cancer and it's time to cut it out using every legislative and regulatory option we have. That attitude is the problem: why do we go straight from "This is a problem!" to the government? Aren't there solutions other than making things illegal? Is it just because making things illegal is easier than talking to our neighbors and friends, and giving them peaceful solutions to their problems, doing business locally, and refusing to do business through online ads that use techniques that lead to results like this? People who call for insurrection are usually plenty aware of where to get things like this anyway. It's a bad look for Facebook, sure; but are these ads likely to do real harm? I doubt it. There's plenty of time for sensible people to make a difference without creating more anger by trying to make even more restrictive laws.

arcticbull 6y ago
One of the major specific roles of government in a civil society is to maintain and establish the rules of fair play which then allow for a functioning market economy. This represents an inherent compromise.We recognize and appreciate the value that integration and scale provides, and we use the scale of the government to keep it in check. This isn’t just about going out and talking to people who disagree with you. Part of the issue is that the news bubbles that have been created out of news and stories and conspiracies that algorithms know we will react to chip away at our ability to have those conversations with each other. You know, I watch a lot of Fox News, I have some deeply conservative friends and acquaintances and dude they live in a parallel universe. We need the government to collapse those universes together so we can have those conversations in the first place. The ads to harm because they reinforce the structural walls between universes which prevent the necessary conversation from taking place. It’s pretty bad out there dude.
- JasonFruit 6y ago
  I disagree on your first paragraph, but that's less critical than my disagreement with your second and third. Don't you think that some personal engagement could help bring that parallel universe — and yours — back into sync with reality? You say the algorithms chip away at our ability to have conversations, but I see the opposite: real life has a stronger effect on people's perceptions of truth than on-line bubbles, and can help reassert reality.

manigandham 6y ago

Liability for what exactly? How about people who actually commit bad acts are the ones responsible for it? It seems like you haven't really thought about this and are just personally against adtech and those companies. That's not how rights and legislation should be decided.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
Fostering insurrection for profit is, I am pretty sure, illegal. And I'm pretty sure a prison or worse offense.
- xkcd-sucks 6y ago
  What about empowering people to protect themselves from violent insurrectionists? If I read in the news that a whole bunch of people planned to converge on my town and shoot at each other, I would certainly consider buying some body armor
  - pardonmesir 6y ago
    So the options are a) Facebook sells tactical equipment to one side, and body armor to the other, or b) They ban these product categories altogether. In context with the fact that Facebook also served up the precise content day after day, year after year, which put people (the whole population) into this inconsistent-with-reality, individually tailored emotional state which is nothing if not a constant reflection and validation of their worst tendencies and pre-dispositions. Think of an honestly shitty person whose problems are of their own creation in every way (for the purpose of this thought experiment, you can even pretend it’s not you). Do you think Facebook ever gave them a series of posts that reflects that? Or would they log on to see all the ways other people are the problem? And that’s everyone. We all have flaws, but this is a profit-driven platform. And if you’re trying to sell someone something, making them feel like the true piece of shit they really are isn’t exactly in the ABCs of how to make a sale, much less at their machine-driven scale. Facebook is basically the automated version of the guy rubbing a boxer’s shoulders in the corner of the ring, whispering in their ear a never-ending slew of made-up things the other guy said so that when the fight starts, he’s angry as can be.

huntermeyer 6y ago

This will never happen. Cigarettes are still being advertised and sold.