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One thing that confuses me is why this data needs to be stored within the internet at all. Why can't I have an entirely offline driven system? Data stays local

One thing that confuses me is why this data needs to be stored within the internet at all. Why can't I have an entirely offline driven system? Data stays local, no ability to upload it online at all, and all processing is done without ever needing the internet. That's a key criteria if I ever was thinking of getting a smart wearable, I'm not going to generate even more data that can be profited from and potentially used against me. It's increasingly looking like storing data is a huge responsibility (although, if it is ever leaked, sadly humans don't tend to see prison time for this crime). What we need is a clause that says "if this data ever touches the internet whether accidental or otherwise the CEO goes straight to jail, are you sure about this?". Sadly, I think society as a whole is just "used" to this by now and a second thought is rarely given, disappointing this merger was approved, especially when the EU is investigating several "anti trusts", why give them even more power? Oh well, I'll see you fellow HN readers on the next "major data leakage from misconfigured MongoDB and nobody is punished" thread.

johnwayne666 6y ago
It's the reason I got an Apple watch 3 as a sport watch: all the other options seemed to want to upload everything online.
sitkack 6y ago
What really disappointed me about the fitbit was that it required it to be tethered to the phone and my account before it would function as a pedometer. It seems broken that I also have to have a phone, app store access to get a device to drive the pixels for data it already has. Every piece of hardware that does this is effectively "app store locked", your phone is now your software dongle for your hardware.
- brlewis 6y ago
  See the section "Don't have a mobile device available?" on https://www.fitbit.com/setup https://www.fitbit.com/setup for desktop apps. Some functions, like sleep tracking, are too computationally intensive to do on a wrist computer.
  - sitkack 6y ago
    Thats neat. But the device would only pair and should have some sort of functionality out of the box.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    Such functions can be done on a more powerful mobile computer, but that still doesn't justify the requirement for having an account/Internet connection available.
  - Retric 6y ago
    That wrist computer has a lot of compute power, suggesting sleep tracking needs more is a rather extraordinary claim. Not having decent UI far is more credible.
- sneak 6y ago
  DJI stuff, including the totally offline stuff like the Osmo Action, Osmo Pocket, and their handheld gimbals also work this way: you have to provide email/create an account to "activate" them to even use them.
oakpond 6y ago
> if it is ever leaked or when
freedomben 6y ago
Arguing for jail, aka literally locking a human being in a cage, for any non-violent offense, let-alone getting hacked because your employees mad a mistake, is mindblowing to me. I'm as irritated as you at data leaks from negligence, but jail? I thought jail was not supposed to be for "punishment" but rather to protect the public from someone too dangerous to allow free, and even then it should mainly target "rehabilitation." You're now talking about using it clearly just for punishment (which I would argue we do all over the place, totally inconsistent with it's stated purpose). This is before we discuss whether jail is torture. Even if the "jail" is well regulated to prevent thing like violence and sexual abuse, it's terrible to lock a person in a cage. There are plenty of studies about the effects that has on a person's mind. Then you consider that you're soft blackballed from employment (and therefore society) when you get a "record" and can't pass a background check, and that the positive feedback loop leads to a life of poverty, crime, and suffering that is avoidable. Please consider the significance of what you are arguing for here.
- Sander3Utile 6y ago
  Well in that case the person would be going to jail because he can't be trusted with not exposing private information, so another form of protection
- aboringusername 6y ago
  Jail is used for a lot of "non-violent" crime, such as fraud if the judge/court thinks it's warranted. Jun Ying, Equifax's previous CIO did 4 months in jail and another did 8 months of home confinement. Handling data is a privilege, not a right, and can come at a huge cost. Just look at Parler for example, they weren't even stripping EXIF data which depending on how you look at is is either great for those involved to be tracked and arrested or a terrifying oversight that will lead to huge repercussions... Data can end lives, this has been proven time and again, it's just as dangerous as a knife or gun in certain circumstances and the crime of having it leaked must have an appropriate punishment
- eberkund 6y ago
  Are you against jail-time for all non-violent white collar crimes or just negligence in the realm of technology companies? Please don't assume that anyone with a different view hasn't considered the significance of their position.
at-fates-hands 6y ago
I use Suunto fitness tracker and all my data is under the protections of the company which is located in Finland. Since they are a member of the EU, GDPR rules apply to personal data retention as well as other privacy data laws they also have. It may not be much, but I feel a lot more at ease using their products than what Fitbit is going to be handing over to Google.
hapticmonkey 6y ago
Apple's health data is all stored offline, unless you have iCloud enabled for health data, in which case it's end-to-end encrypted and only used so devices can sync. You can choose to share certain data for their research programs. The answer as to why other companies store data online should be obvious: There's a business can for having access to that data.
colordrops 6y ago
Look into Gadgetbridge and the devices it supports. I ended getting a Mi Band 5 for $35 off of amazon. No data sent beyond the phone. The band works without a phone too.
partiallypro 6y ago
Fitbit is very much a social network, where you can challenge your friends etc. It is very much a selling point to the device. So in the case of Fitbit the user data being online is vital.
- sneak 6y ago
  Sounds like they were about to go out of business without an acquisition, so I'm not sure how vital it was: it wasn't working to create a profitable business in the first place.
  - partiallypro 6y ago
    Over a very long period of time, they might have gone under; but their financials weren't terrible, almost 500M in revenue a year, and turning a gross profit every quarter. They just weren't returning shareholder value. The fact is that the Apple Watch is a cultish item, and people within that ecosystem are going to buy a complimentary device. That effectively leaves the others fighting for scraps. Most people just use their Apple Watch as a fitness device without utilizing the other features, but they are willing to pony up regardless.
maxk42 6y ago
You should make it. I'll buy one!
na85 6y ago
>Why can't I have an entirely offline driven system? Because that's less profitable for the corporate data barons.
orloffm 6y ago
You can use Garmin devices that way. They keep all logs forever and behave like USB storage when connected to a PC.

johnwayne666 6y ago

It's the reason I got an Apple watch 3 as a sport watch: all the other options seemed to want to upload everything online.

sitkack 6y ago

What really disappointed me about the fitbit was that it required it to be tethered to the phone and my account before it would function as a pedometer. It seems broken that I also have to have a phone, app store access to get a device to drive the pixels for data it already has. Every piece of hardware that does this is effectively "app store locked", your phone is now your software dongle for your hardware.

brlewis 6y ago
See the section "Don't have a mobile device available?" on https://www.fitbit.com/setup https://www.fitbit.com/setup for desktop apps. Some functions, like sleep tracking, are too computationally intensive to do on a wrist computer.
- sitkack 6y ago
  Thats neat. But the device would only pair and should have some sort of functionality out of the box.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Such functions can be done on a more powerful mobile computer, but that still doesn't justify the requirement for having an account/Internet connection available.
- Retric 6y ago
  That wrist computer has a lot of compute power, suggesting sleep tracking needs more is a rather extraordinary claim. Not having decent UI far is more credible.
sneak 6y ago
DJI stuff, including the totally offline stuff like the Osmo Action, Osmo Pocket, and their handheld gimbals also work this way: you have to provide email/create an account to "activate" them to even use them.

oakpond 6y ago

> if it is ever leaked or when

freedomben 6y ago

Arguing for jail, aka literally locking a human being in a cage, for any non-violent offense, let-alone getting hacked because your employees mad a mistake, is mindblowing to me. I'm as irritated as you at data leaks from negligence, but jail? I thought jail was not supposed to be for "punishment" but rather to protect the public from someone too dangerous to allow free, and even then it should mainly target "rehabilitation." You're now talking about using it clearly just for punishment (which I would argue we do all over the place, totally inconsistent with it's stated purpose). This is before we discuss whether jail is torture. Even if the "jail" is well regulated to prevent thing like violence and sexual abuse, it's terrible to lock a person in a cage. There are plenty of studies about the effects that has on a person's mind. Then you consider that you're soft blackballed from employment (and therefore society) when you get a "record" and can't pass a background check, and that the positive feedback loop leads to a life of poverty, crime, and suffering that is avoidable. Please consider the significance of what you are arguing for here.

Sander3Utile 6y ago
Well in that case the person would be going to jail because he can't be trusted with not exposing private information, so another form of protection
aboringusername 6y ago
Jail is used for a lot of "non-violent" crime, such as fraud if the judge/court thinks it's warranted. Jun Ying, Equifax's previous CIO did 4 months in jail and another did 8 months of home confinement. Handling data is a privilege, not a right, and can come at a huge cost. Just look at Parler for example, they weren't even stripping EXIF data which depending on how you look at is is either great for those involved to be tracked and arrested or a terrifying oversight that will lead to huge repercussions... Data can end lives, this has been proven time and again, it's just as dangerous as a knife or gun in certain circumstances and the crime of having it leaked must have an appropriate punishment
eberkund 6y ago
Are you against jail-time for all non-violent white collar crimes or just negligence in the realm of technology companies? Please don't assume that anyone with a different view hasn't considered the significance of their position.

at-fates-hands 6y ago

I use Suunto fitness tracker and all my data is under the protections of the company which is located in Finland. Since they are a member of the EU, GDPR rules apply to personal data retention as well as other privacy data laws they also have. It may not be much, but I feel a lot more at ease using their products than what Fitbit is going to be handing over to Google.

hapticmonkey 6y ago

Apple's health data is all stored offline, unless you have iCloud enabled for health data, in which case it's end-to-end encrypted and only used so devices can sync. You can choose to share certain data for their research programs. The answer as to why other companies store data online should be obvious: There's a business can for having access to that data.

colordrops 6y ago

Look into Gadgetbridge and the devices it supports. I ended getting a Mi Band 5 for $35 off of amazon. No data sent beyond the phone. The band works without a phone too.

partiallypro 6y ago

Fitbit is very much a social network, where you can challenge your friends etc. It is very much a selling point to the device. So in the case of Fitbit the user data being online is vital.

sneak 6y ago
Sounds like they were about to go out of business without an acquisition, so I'm not sure how vital it was: it wasn't working to create a profitable business in the first place.
- partiallypro 6y ago
  Over a very long period of time, they might have gone under; but their financials weren't terrible, almost 500M in revenue a year, and turning a gross profit every quarter. They just weren't returning shareholder value. The fact is that the Apple Watch is a cultish item, and people within that ecosystem are going to buy a complimentary device. That effectively leaves the others fighting for scraps. Most people just use their Apple Watch as a fitness device without utilizing the other features, but they are willing to pony up regardless.

maxk42 6y ago

You should make it. I'll buy one!

na85 6y ago

>Why can't I have an entirely offline driven system? Because that's less profitable for the corporate data barons.

orloffm 6y ago

You can use Garmin devices that way. They keep all logs forever and behave like USB storage when connected to a PC.