8 ms·

Because people, not Hacker news people, but real people like Facebook. That's the reason.

by mimikatz 6y ago

nhumrich 6y ago
real people like parlor.
- kgwgk 6y ago
  the wrong people /s
- DGAP 6y ago
  Well if white supremacists and fellow travelers are people, then yes, sure.
- IgorPartola 6y ago
  Knives can be used to kill people. But a lot more knives are used in cooking. So we see knives as tools that are relatively rarely used to do bad things and mostly used for good things. Guns are mostly used to kill people. So we see them as tools only useful for that purpose. That’s why you can buy a set of knives on Amazon but not a 10 pack of Glocks. Facebook is seen closer to knives. Parler was mostly guns.
  - jeffreyrogers 6y ago
    Arguably true of handguns, not really true of guns in general.
    - IgorPartola 6y ago
      Yes I also chop my salads with RPGs and AK-47s :) #notallguns
  - leetcrew 6y ago
    > Guns are mostly used to kill people. So we see them as tools only useful for that purpose. this isn't true. guns are used far more often for hunting animals than for killing humans, by multiple orders of magnitude. even more often, guns are used to shoot targets at the range.
    - IgorPartola 6y ago
      Substitute grenades or mines for guns in my analogy if that makes it easier for you. The point is that Facebook is mostly harmless content with a few specific spots of really not harmless content. Parler was mostly harmful content. And before someone tells me that Parler wasn’t, tell me how spreading lies about the stolen election and talking about gassing specific ethnic groups is good for the society.
      - MrMan 6y ago
        Man you picked the wrong analogy for this forum! Guns are a form of self expression here, so it's like the 1st and 2nd amendment added together
        IgorPartola 6y ago
        Hah. I recently had a conversation with someone who pointed out that it is really odd to see guns as anything but a tool. As in, how weird would it be if someone formed their whole identity around their affinity for hammers or wrenches or winches or chainsaws? But when you see a “gun guy” you are like “yup, that’s America”.
        krapp 6y ago
        That's what the Second Amendment, the close relationship between the NRA, Republican Party and conservative Christianity, and two hundred years of the South romanticizing the archetype of the militiaman patriot watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants will do. Guns should be seen as just a tool, they should be legal but heavily regulated, they don't need their own Constitutional amendment. The basic premise of the Second Amendment became obsolete once the US had a standing army.
  - o_1 6y ago
    this is literally the worst parallel I've ever heard. guns are deterant against serious bodily harm. You've obviously never been in a situation when someone else was threatening your life. A better assumption is maybe Parler was a deterant from suppression. I love how parler criticism existed in 24hrs after "trump" ban. I was on the platform for months non of this hainiss violence or racism was ever in my feed.
    - mlang23 6y ago
      Indeed, I was never in a situation where someone threatened my life. I know why. I life in a first world country. With reasonable people, and proper gun control laws. The gun laws are what make me consider the USA not a safe place.
      - vorpalhex 6y ago
        Because the UK and EU have no murders, rapes, assaults, etc? At some point you've crossed from hyperbole into just waging a culture war. Remember that the goal is to evolve both sides understanding in a disagreement, not shout loudly at the other person until they walk away.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - cyberdelica 6y ago
        > I life in a first world country. With reasonable people, and proper gun control laws. So do I (although I might disagree to some extent on the reasonable people), yet I've experienced multiple direct threats against my life. This is in England, where it's supposed to be all tea and biscuits.
    - IgorPartola 6y ago
      Parler was a bunch of people who got run out of places Reddit for being too extreme. It was to maintaining democracy what a housewife on Facebook loving a meme that said “upvote for awareness” was to curing cancer. I mean look at the end result: people unironically brought confederate flags into the US Capitol and called themselves patriots. That is in no way different than flying the British flag there. “Hurdur, my ancestors fought against the American troops in the revolution. Y’all aren’t true patriots, I am. Go colonies!”
  - cal5k 6y ago
    > That’s why you can buy a set of knives on Amazon but not a 10 pack of Glocks. No, it's because Amazon doesn't sell guns. There's also no reason to own 10 of the same firearm - it's not like you're setting your dinner table with handguns. As for guns being "mostly used to kill people", that's just not true. My gun collection has only been used to kill paper targets and, occasionally, deer. Properly used they are no more risk to society than a kitchen knife, arguably less since there are more stabbings than shootings every year. Banning Parler and banning guns both strike me as infantilizing and highly ineffective. Look at what all of the anti-gun rhetoric has done for gun sales in the US - the same thing will happen with alternative social media platforms.
    - mlang23 6y ago
      People who keep a personal "gun collection" should be put under permanent sourveilance. A weekly psychology test included.
      - 55555 6y ago
        Why? And what about people who keep a knife collection?
    - dylan604 6y ago
      > it's not like you're setting your dinner table with handguns. This would make for an interesting dinner party. Does any of Agatha Christie's stories start out like this? Or one of those murder/whodunnit dinner theater type of events where the dinner guests are part of the play.
    - frockington1 6y ago
      Same with cloud services deplatforming.It's free advertisement for the competition. When I heard about AWS denying service I immediately looked into alternatives that could be used
      - IgorPartola 6y ago
        Used for what?
  - neartheplain 6y ago
    > Guns are mostly used to kill people. That’s an incorrect statement. Let’s look at the evidence. More than 50 million Americans engaged in some kind of recreational shooting in 2018 [0]. Compare that to 14,000 gun-related homicides across the country in the same period [1], mostly in certain high-crime communities [2]. The CDC estimates there are between 500,000 and 3 million instances of defensive gun use in the US each year [3]. They also found that cases of self-defense where the victim used a gun resulted in less injury to the victim, on average, than in cases where other self-defense strategies where employed. There are also obvious downsides to a society with permissive gun ownership, but overstating the case for gun control doesn’t move the discussion in a positive direction. [0] https://www.nssf.org/research/nsga-participation-reports/ https://www.nssf.org/research/nsga-participation-reports/ [1] https://www.thetrace.org/2019/01/gun-deaths-2018-america-mass-shootings-suicide/ https://www.thetrace.org/2019/01/gun-deaths-2018-america-mas... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/jan/09/special-report-fixing-gun-violence-in-america https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/jan/... [3] http://www.ncdsv.org/images/IOM-NRC_Priorities-for-Research-to-reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence_2013.pdf http://www.ncdsv.org/images/IOM-NRC_Priorities-for-Research-...
    - adtac 6y ago
      Okay, compare this to the ratio of recreational knife use (including kitchens) to violent knife use and you'll see why guns are a problem.
      - tristor 6y ago
        > Okay, compare this to the ratio of recreational knife use (including kitchens) to violent knife use and you'll see why guns are a problem. In the US, stabbings are the second most common cause of murders after shootings, and a higher incident of assaults. In the UK, stabbings are significantly more common than shootings, to the point they are establishing very similar regulations around knife purchase and possession. An honest look at the data on violence would indicate two things: 1. Violent behavior and the tool used are disconnected. E.g. People with an intention to be violent will act violent regardless of which tools are available. 2. When someone is violent they'll use the most efficient tool available. E.g. Once someone has made a decision to act out violently they'll identify and use the best tool available to carry out their violence. In effect, there are two ways to approach violence in society. You can try to reduce the number of available tools to carry out violence so people are restricted to their bare hands (note strangulations and beatings just barely trail stabbing in the US as a cause of murder). Or you can address the social issues that result in people acting violently at all, to reduce the incidence of violence and violence-adjacent behaviors in society. Levering #2 is easier but less impactful, Levering #1 is harder, but has much wider positive impacts. No matter what you do, violence will never be entirely eliminated. I think assessing the data honestly and coming to the conclusion "guns are a problem" is either a result of bias or naivete, because it's not a logical conclusion following from the available data, either US-centric or globally.
  - tristor 6y ago
    This is a horrible argument. Not only is is factually untrue on nearly every count, it's not even an accurate analogy, even if it were true. You can't buy guns on Amazon for the same reason you can't buy tobacco, liquor, lottery tickets, or cars on Amazon. Because these are all things which are regulated by the government in such a way as to be incompatible with Amazon's logistics and purchasing setup and customer experience. You can buy all of those things online (except lottery tickets), but just not on Amazon. Since Amazon sells other alcoholic beverages, they're hardly taking a moral stance about the dangers of alcoholism. They sell tobacco accessories so they're hardly taking a moral stance against tobacco, they sell parts for cars so they're surely not against private vehicle ownership, and yes, they even sell tactical gear and gun accessories (although crucially not gun parts... any more). The reason you can buy a set of knives on Amazon and not a Glock is that knives aren't regulated with more than 84000 conflicting laws between different state, county, and municipal jurisdictions across the US, including differing restrictions on transfer and shipping, and knives do not have federal regulations requiring background checks. Regardless of your personal opinion around private firearms ownership, you should surely be able to see that the analogy you've presented is patently absurd.
    - brewdad 6y ago
      You were so close...Try thinking about why guns, tobacco, liquor, etc. are regulated by the government while kitchen knives aren't. You'll get there.
      - tristor 6y ago
        It essentially doesn't matter /why/ guns, tobacco, liquor, etc. are regulated by the government. That reasoning has no bearing on why Amazon doesn't sell them. Amazon is not a moral agent, it's one of the largest corporations in the world with a profit imperative to expand into as many product categories as possible in its goal to dominate e-commerce. Those government regulations make those product types conflict with Amazon's way of doing business and complying with those regulations reduces profit margins to a level where these products are unattractive to offer. There's a moral-political argument which can be made, sure, but that argument isn't the basis for why Amazon doesn't offer these products, and /that/ was the assertion underlying the grandparent's analogy. It's simply false.
- trianglem 6y ago
  But it’s almost all “bad” real people.

Because people, not Hacker news people, but real people like Facebook. That's the reason.

nhumrich 6y ago

real people like parlor.

kgwgk 6y ago
the wrong people /s
DGAP 6y ago
Well if white supremacists and fellow travelers are people, then yes, sure.
IgorPartola 6y ago
Knives can be used to kill people. But a lot more knives are used in cooking. So we see knives as tools that are relatively rarely used to do bad things and mostly used for good things. Guns are mostly used to kill people. So we see them as tools only useful for that purpose. That’s why you can buy a set of knives on Amazon but not a 10 pack of Glocks. Facebook is seen closer to knives. Parler was mostly guns.
- jeffreyrogers 6y ago
  Arguably true of handguns, not really true of guns in general.
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    Yes I also chop my salads with RPGs and AK-47s :) #notallguns
- leetcrew 6y ago
  > Guns are mostly used to kill people. So we see them as tools only useful for that purpose. this isn't true. guns are used far more often for hunting animals than for killing humans, by multiple orders of magnitude. even more often, guns are used to shoot targets at the range.
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    Substitute grenades or mines for guns in my analogy if that makes it easier for you. The point is that Facebook is mostly harmless content with a few specific spots of really not harmless content. Parler was mostly harmful content. And before someone tells me that Parler wasn’t, tell me how spreading lies about the stolen election and talking about gassing specific ethnic groups is good for the society.
    - MrMan 6y ago
      Man you picked the wrong analogy for this forum! Guns are a form of self expression here, so it's like the 1st and 2nd amendment added together
      - IgorPartola 6y ago
        Hah. I recently had a conversation with someone who pointed out that it is really odd to see guns as anything but a tool. As in, how weird would it be if someone formed their whole identity around their affinity for hammers or wrenches or winches or chainsaws? But when you see a “gun guy” you are like “yup, that’s America”.
        krapp 6y ago
        That's what the Second Amendment, the close relationship between the NRA, Republican Party and conservative Christianity, and two hundred years of the South romanticizing the archetype of the militiaman patriot watering the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants will do. Guns should be seen as just a tool, they should be legal but heavily regulated, they don't need their own Constitutional amendment. The basic premise of the Second Amendment became obsolete once the US had a standing army.
- o_1 6y ago
  this is literally the worst parallel I've ever heard. guns are deterant against serious bodily harm. You've obviously never been in a situation when someone else was threatening your life. A better assumption is maybe Parler was a deterant from suppression. I love how parler criticism existed in 24hrs after "trump" ban. I was on the platform for months non of this hainiss violence or racism was ever in my feed.
  - mlang23 6y ago
    Indeed, I was never in a situation where someone threatened my life. I know why. I life in a first world country. With reasonable people, and proper gun control laws. The gun laws are what make me consider the USA not a safe place.
    - vorpalhex 6y ago
      Because the UK and EU have no murders, rapes, assaults, etc? At some point you've crossed from hyperbole into just waging a culture war. Remember that the goal is to evolve both sides understanding in a disagreement, not shout loudly at the other person until they walk away.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - cyberdelica 6y ago
      > I life in a first world country. With reasonable people, and proper gun control laws. So do I (although I might disagree to some extent on the reasonable people), yet I've experienced multiple direct threats against my life. This is in England, where it's supposed to be all tea and biscuits.
  - IgorPartola 6y ago
    Parler was a bunch of people who got run out of places Reddit for being too extreme. It was to maintaining democracy what a housewife on Facebook loving a meme that said “upvote for awareness” was to curing cancer. I mean look at the end result: people unironically brought confederate flags into the US Capitol and called themselves patriots. That is in no way different than flying the British flag there. “Hurdur, my ancestors fought against the American troops in the revolution. Y’all aren’t true patriots, I am. Go colonies!”
- cal5k 6y ago
  > That’s why you can buy a set of knives on Amazon but not a 10 pack of Glocks. No, it's because Amazon doesn't sell guns. There's also no reason to own 10 of the same firearm - it's not like you're setting your dinner table with handguns. As for guns being "mostly used to kill people", that's just not true. My gun collection has only been used to kill paper targets and, occasionally, deer. Properly used they are no more risk to society than a kitchen knife, arguably less since there are more stabbings than shootings every year. Banning Parler and banning guns both strike me as infantilizing and highly ineffective. Look at what all of the anti-gun rhetoric has done for gun sales in the US - the same thing will happen with alternative social media platforms.
  - mlang23 6y ago
    People who keep a personal "gun collection" should be put under permanent sourveilance. A weekly psychology test included.
    - 55555 6y ago
      Why? And what about people who keep a knife collection?
  - dylan604 6y ago
    > it's not like you're setting your dinner table with handguns. This would make for an interesting dinner party. Does any of Agatha Christie's stories start out like this? Or one of those murder/whodunnit dinner theater type of events where the dinner guests are part of the play.
  - frockington1 6y ago
    Same with cloud services deplatforming.It's free advertisement for the competition. When I heard about AWS denying service I immediately looked into alternatives that could be used
    - IgorPartola 6y ago
      Used for what?
- neartheplain 6y ago
  > Guns are mostly used to kill people. That’s an incorrect statement. Let’s look at the evidence. More than 50 million Americans engaged in some kind of recreational shooting in 2018 [0]. Compare that to 14,000 gun-related homicides across the country in the same period [1], mostly in certain high-crime communities [2]. The CDC estimates there are between 500,000 and 3 million instances of defensive gun use in the US each year [3]. They also found that cases of self-defense where the victim used a gun resulted in less injury to the victim, on average, than in cases where other self-defense strategies where employed. There are also obvious downsides to a society with permissive gun ownership, but overstating the case for gun control doesn’t move the discussion in a positive direction. [0] https://www.nssf.org/research/nsga-participation-reports/ https://www.nssf.org/research/nsga-participation-reports/ [1] https://www.thetrace.org/2019/01/gun-deaths-2018-america-mass-shootings-suicide/ https://www.thetrace.org/2019/01/gun-deaths-2018-america-mas... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/jan/09/special-report-fixing-gun-violence-in-america https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2017/jan/... [3] http://www.ncdsv.org/images/IOM-NRC_Priorities-for-Research-to-reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence_2013.pdf http://www.ncdsv.org/images/IOM-NRC_Priorities-for-Research-...
  - adtac 6y ago
    Okay, compare this to the ratio of recreational knife use (including kitchens) to violent knife use and you'll see why guns are a problem.
    - tristor 6y ago
      > Okay, compare this to the ratio of recreational knife use (including kitchens) to violent knife use and you'll see why guns are a problem. In the US, stabbings are the second most common cause of murders after shootings, and a higher incident of assaults. In the UK, stabbings are significantly more common than shootings, to the point they are establishing very similar regulations around knife purchase and possession. An honest look at the data on violence would indicate two things: 1. Violent behavior and the tool used are disconnected. E.g. People with an intention to be violent will act violent regardless of which tools are available. 2. When someone is violent they'll use the most efficient tool available. E.g. Once someone has made a decision to act out violently they'll identify and use the best tool available to carry out their violence. In effect, there are two ways to approach violence in society. You can try to reduce the number of available tools to carry out violence so people are restricted to their bare hands (note strangulations and beatings just barely trail stabbing in the US as a cause of murder). Or you can address the social issues that result in people acting violently at all, to reduce the incidence of violence and violence-adjacent behaviors in society. Levering #2 is easier but less impactful, Levering #1 is harder, but has much wider positive impacts. No matter what you do, violence will never be entirely eliminated. I think assessing the data honestly and coming to the conclusion "guns are a problem" is either a result of bias or naivete, because it's not a logical conclusion following from the available data, either US-centric or globally.
- tristor 6y ago
  This is a horrible argument. Not only is is factually untrue on nearly every count, it's not even an accurate analogy, even if it were true. You can't buy guns on Amazon for the same reason you can't buy tobacco, liquor, lottery tickets, or cars on Amazon. Because these are all things which are regulated by the government in such a way as to be incompatible with Amazon's logistics and purchasing setup and customer experience. You can buy all of those things online (except lottery tickets), but just not on Amazon. Since Amazon sells other alcoholic beverages, they're hardly taking a moral stance about the dangers of alcoholism. They sell tobacco accessories so they're hardly taking a moral stance against tobacco, they sell parts for cars so they're surely not against private vehicle ownership, and yes, they even sell tactical gear and gun accessories (although crucially not gun parts... any more). The reason you can buy a set of knives on Amazon and not a Glock is that knives aren't regulated with more than 84000 conflicting laws between different state, county, and municipal jurisdictions across the US, including differing restrictions on transfer and shipping, and knives do not have federal regulations requiring background checks. Regardless of your personal opinion around private firearms ownership, you should surely be able to see that the analogy you've presented is patently absurd.
  - brewdad 6y ago
    You were so close...Try thinking about why guns, tobacco, liquor, etc. are regulated by the government while kitchen knives aren't. You'll get there.
    - tristor 6y ago
      It essentially doesn't matter /why/ guns, tobacco, liquor, etc. are regulated by the government. That reasoning has no bearing on why Amazon doesn't sell them. Amazon is not a moral agent, it's one of the largest corporations in the world with a profit imperative to expand into as many product categories as possible in its goal to dominate e-commerce. Those government regulations make those product types conflict with Amazon's way of doing business and complying with those regulations reduces profit margins to a level where these products are unattractive to offer. There's a moral-political argument which can be made, sure, but that argument isn't the basis for why Amazon doesn't offer these products, and /that/ was the assertion underlying the grandparent's analogy. It's simply false.
trianglem 6y ago
But it’s almost all “bad” real people.