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I just realized the semi-stupidity of my question. I should have said "modern web", considering the ARPANET could be considered a type of "internet" (?) that ra

I just realized the semi-stupidity of my question. I should have said "modern web", considering the ARPANET could be considered a type of "internet" (?) that ran using hardware from 1969? Thank you for the replies though, something to read up on.

mixmastamyk 6y ago
Modern web meaning bloated as hell, or motherfingwebsite and jquery? Minimums range from Pentium 90 to a ten year old i3. RAM would be a large factor as well for modern.
laci27 6y ago
modern web? Lynx Web browser is still being maintained!:) You can use it to search google or wikipedia. You can run Lynx on a 8086 CPU. If I remember correctly, Lynx can display images, if you download it one by one:) If you want video, but not go with an Amiga with a modern add-on card, you're probably looking at a Pentium PC.
classichasclass 6y ago
Do you mean something that, for example, could access TLS 1.2? I hacked up such a thing that works on a number of my old boxes, including NeXSTEP and A/UX. The oldest system I got it to work on is a Mac IIci running NetBSD without a cache card; it needs about 22 seconds to do a TLS 1.2 transaction with a local server, but it works. https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2020/11/fun-with-crypto-ancienne-tls-for.html https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2020/11/fun-with-crypto-ancienne...
- bawolff 6y ago
  Huh, wonder where its spending all that time and if different ciphers would make a significant difference. I imagine many of the modern ciphers have hand tuned assembly for 64bit computers but probably not for older computers.
iuguy 6y ago
I regularly use the Web most days on an Amiga 4000, built in 1992. It's not perfect for everything, but I can use things like search engines, visit web sites over HTTPS etc. I mostly visit Amiga-specific sites that tend to have lower overheads. I've also visited sites like like Twitter, Facebook, CNN etc. in the past. It should be possible to use older machines to browse the web but it stops being about the machine and starts being more about availability of TLS libraries and rendering engines. In theory an Amiga 1000 (1985) should be able to connect to the Internet and may be able to run AmiSSL and IBrowse with the right upgrades. It might need custom hardware though. I think there's some jiggery pokery that'll allow older Macs dating back to 85 or maybe 84 (I'd be surprised to see an original 128kb Mac but the late 84 512kb model should work) to browse the web without modern TLS.
- fogihujy 6y ago
  Is the 68k port of Netsurf still kept up to date? I assume it would be slow, but Netsurf itself is quite usable, though I wouldn't say it's a modern Internet experience.
  - iuguy 6y ago
    Not really. I'm not sure where I got it from but I have several Netsurf versions on my Amiga, including a crash-prone 3.10 build. The last official release is 3.6 I think. Even so the 3.10 build I have isn't built against current AmiSSL so TLS sites fail. It is slower than say, Voyager Browser and much slower than IBrowse. Netsurf 3.6 is usable if you're patient on an 060/50. Performance is around what I'd expect from a Pentium 75-100 maybe?
- jbjbjbjb 6y ago
  How come you use your Amiga regularly? Is there something specific you use it for?
  - iuguy 6y ago
    I use it because I used them throughout the 90s and just find them really nice machines to use for a lot of things. Almost everything's offline first, but it's functional enough to get things done. Some things are more fiddly, but that's to be expected. Most of what I do is creative, a mix of Art, music, programming, writing. I've done things like covid data analysis, I've written the odd letter on there, some of my newsletter gets written on there. I also use it for things like Usenet, IRC, Telegram etc. There's also a lot of really good games for it. I've heard classic 68k Mac owners have similar experiences. Of course, some say the Amiga is also the fastest classic Mac[1]. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jph0gxzL3UI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jph0gxzL3UI
krylon 6y ago
The oldest device I have actually used to access a web site was a Sun SparcStation 20, built ca. 1992-93. However, at 64MB RAM, accessing the "modern web" would be extremely, painfully slow, at best. In fact, the memory-hunger of modern browsers renders older machines practically unusable faster these days than any other factor, at least that has been my experience.
mhd 6y ago
Even that leaves a lot of room. If you can fix certificate problems, any simple browser (even text mode lynx) can still do a lot these days. But let's go really "modern", i.e. being able to access web applications without missing features, timeouts etc. Slower, maybe just one at a time, but what you do works. That's surprisingly hard. I sometimes use TenFourFox, a browser for Power Macs, which is a bit of a mashup between older versions that were still supported and back-ported newer features. And that can run on a quad core G5. I'd say that still misses the mark, but might come close enough. With a G4, that would bring you to maybe 2002's tech. But in the end, for a lot of modern stuff you're basically required to have an "Evergreen" browser or IE11. On Windows, that means Windows 7, which IIRC won't run on Pentium IVs and requires about 1 Ghz/1 Gig RAM. So 2005/2006's tech. On Linux, you can go lower. There's still 32 bit Linux support for Firefox, so if you can get a recent enough distro on an old computer, it should work. A core solo definitely does, and I guess a souped up Pentium IV should work well enough, too. Beyond that, it's going to get interesting. Pentium II's should work and you can give them enough RAM to chug along with a recent OS. So that' about 1998/1999. Beyond that, CPU speed and max RAM will result in some breakage.
- richajak 6y ago
  I agree on that. If the definition is on modern web with ES2020, TLS 1.2, etc, it limits the choice to Firefox and Chrome. This will exclude any computer that does not have at least: a. 2gb of ram as my raspberry pi with 1gb ram cannot handle more than 4 tabs in chromium responsively. b. ssd, connecting to SATA, it makes my 10-year-old thinkpad feels new. c. enough cpu power to handle 2mb of js d. hdmi connector That limits the choices to computers not older than 15 years old, plus minus several years.
maccam94 6y ago
By web, do you mean websites? Does that include images? JavaScript?

mixmastamyk 6y ago

Modern web meaning bloated as hell, or motherfingwebsite and jquery? Minimums range from Pentium 90 to a ten year old i3. RAM would be a large factor as well for modern.

laci27 6y ago

modern web? Lynx Web browser is still being maintained!:) You can use it to search google or wikipedia. You can run Lynx on a 8086 CPU. If I remember correctly, Lynx can display images, if you download it one by one:) If you want video, but not go with an Amiga with a modern add-on card, you're probably looking at a Pentium PC.

classichasclass 6y ago

Do you mean something that, for example, could access TLS 1.2? I hacked up such a thing that works on a number of my old boxes, including NeXSTEP and A/UX. The oldest system I got it to work on is a Mac IIci running NetBSD without a cache card; it needs about 22 seconds to do a TLS 1.2 transaction with a local server, but it works. https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2020/11/fun-with-crypto-ancienne-tls-for.html https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2020/11/fun-with-crypto-ancienne...

bawolff 6y ago
Huh, wonder where its spending all that time and if different ciphers would make a significant difference. I imagine many of the modern ciphers have hand tuned assembly for 64bit computers but probably not for older computers.

iuguy 6y ago

I regularly use the Web most days on an Amiga 4000, built in 1992. It's not perfect for everything, but I can use things like search engines, visit web sites over HTTPS etc. I mostly visit Amiga-specific sites that tend to have lower overheads. I've also visited sites like like Twitter, Facebook, CNN etc. in the past. It should be possible to use older machines to browse the web but it stops being about the machine and starts being more about availability of TLS libraries and rendering engines. In theory an Amiga 1000 (1985) should be able to connect to the Internet and may be able to run AmiSSL and IBrowse with the right upgrades. It might need custom hardware though. I think there's some jiggery pokery that'll allow older Macs dating back to 85 or maybe 84 (I'd be surprised to see an original 128kb Mac but the late 84 512kb model should work) to browse the web without modern TLS.

fogihujy 6y ago
Is the 68k port of Netsurf still kept up to date? I assume it would be slow, but Netsurf itself is quite usable, though I wouldn't say it's a modern Internet experience.
- iuguy 6y ago
  Not really. I'm not sure where I got it from but I have several Netsurf versions on my Amiga, including a crash-prone 3.10 build. The last official release is 3.6 I think. Even so the 3.10 build I have isn't built against current AmiSSL so TLS sites fail. It is slower than say, Voyager Browser and much slower than IBrowse. Netsurf 3.6 is usable if you're patient on an 060/50. Performance is around what I'd expect from a Pentium 75-100 maybe?
jbjbjbjb 6y ago
How come you use your Amiga regularly? Is there something specific you use it for?
- iuguy 6y ago
  I use it because I used them throughout the 90s and just find them really nice machines to use for a lot of things. Almost everything's offline first, but it's functional enough to get things done. Some things are more fiddly, but that's to be expected. Most of what I do is creative, a mix of Art, music, programming, writing. I've done things like covid data analysis, I've written the odd letter on there, some of my newsletter gets written on there. I also use it for things like Usenet, IRC, Telegram etc. There's also a lot of really good games for it. I've heard classic 68k Mac owners have similar experiences. Of course, some say the Amiga is also the fastest classic Mac[1]. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jph0gxzL3UI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jph0gxzL3UI

krylon 6y ago

The oldest device I have actually used to access a web site was a Sun SparcStation 20, built ca. 1992-93. However, at 64MB RAM, accessing the "modern web" would be extremely, painfully slow, at best. In fact, the memory-hunger of modern browsers renders older machines practically unusable faster these days than any other factor, at least that has been my experience.

mhd 6y ago

Even that leaves a lot of room. If you can fix certificate problems, any simple browser (even text mode lynx) can still do a lot these days. But let's go really "modern", i.e. being able to access web applications without missing features, timeouts etc. Slower, maybe just one at a time, but what you do works. That's surprisingly hard. I sometimes use TenFourFox, a browser for Power Macs, which is a bit of a mashup between older versions that were still supported and back-ported newer features. And that can run on a quad core G5. I'd say that still misses the mark, but might come close enough. With a G4, that would bring you to maybe 2002's tech. But in the end, for a lot of modern stuff you're basically required to have an "Evergreen" browser or IE11. On Windows, that means Windows 7, which IIRC won't run on Pentium IVs and requires about 1 Ghz/1 Gig RAM. So 2005/2006's tech. On Linux, you can go lower. There's still 32 bit Linux support for Firefox, so if you can get a recent enough distro on an old computer, it should work. A core solo definitely does, and I guess a souped up Pentium IV should work well enough, too. Beyond that, it's going to get interesting. Pentium II's should work and you can give them enough RAM to chug along with a recent OS. So that' about 1998/1999. Beyond that, CPU speed and max RAM will result in some breakage.

richajak 6y ago
I agree on that. If the definition is on modern web with ES2020, TLS 1.2, etc, it limits the choice to Firefox and Chrome. This will exclude any computer that does not have at least: a. 2gb of ram as my raspberry pi with 1gb ram cannot handle more than 4 tabs in chromium responsively. b. ssd, connecting to SATA, it makes my 10-year-old thinkpad feels new. c. enough cpu power to handle 2mb of js d. hdmi connector That limits the choices to computers not older than 15 years old, plus minus several years.

maccam94 6y ago

By web, do you mean websites? Does that include images? JavaScript?