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This means you likely haven't driven a Tesla. Most driving interactions in a Tesla are through the stalk or knob rollers on the steering wheel (that adjust bas

by gibolt 6y ago

This means you likely haven't driven a Tesla. Most driving interactions in a Tesla are through the stalk or knob rollers on the steering wheel (that adjust based on situation). It is very well thought out. Voice is an option for nearly everything as well, and it is actually good. The key is that they aren't locked into an outdated fixed UI. Blackberry lost because of their keyboard. Finally, for the scattering of buttons in a traditional vehicle that are used rarely, you still have to visually scan the entire dash to find it and hope their icon is meaningful. This takes your eyes further from the road than a well positioned, responsive screen.

ikiris 6y ago
No, there are still touch screen actions required, which are super distracting if not in FSD mode. Fog lights for example.
- gibolt 6y ago
  The number required while driving is tiny, available in dedicated top-level menus near the driver, and still voice controllable. I couldn't turn on fog lights in my ICE car without looking for the knob behind the steering wheel, and then fiddling with the options.
- adwn 6y ago
  > Fog lights for example. I've never driven a Tesla or another car with a touchscreen. I almost never need fog lights, so I wouldn't even know which knob to turn which way in my new car. Doesn't help that it's different for every car manufacturer. I'd actually prefer a touchscreen with big, properly labeled buttons for this.
  - henrikschroder 6y ago
    The controls might be different, but the symbols are a global standard.
    - adwn 6y ago
      Yes, but I also need to take my eyes off the road (like for the touchscreen) and look for small symbols in a badly lit corner of the dashboard (unlike for the touchscreen). Look, I'm not arguing for replacing physical controls with touchscreens, I'm just pointing out that it's not as clear-cut as some knob-proponents would have you believe.
      - henrikschroder 6y ago
        Sure, a touchscreen might be better for discovery, for when you need to use a thing you've never used before. Physical controls excel at repeated use though, because you develop muscle memory for it. Imagine if the blinkers had to be activated through the touch screen. That sounds completely ridiculous, right?
        adwn 6y ago
        > Physical controls excel at repeated use though, because you develop muscle memory for it. Imagine if the blinkers had to be activated through the touch screen. Again, you're arguing against a point of view which I've never professed. Yes, of course it would be ridiculous if you had to activate your blinkers through the touchscreen. Did anyone claim otherwise? Are the blinkers in a Tesla controlled through the touchscreen?
        henrikschroder 6y ago
        > Again, you're arguing against a point of view which I've never professed. Fair enough, but your argument that physical buttons aren't so great basically boils down to "they suck the first time". Which is correct, but in the long run they're simply superior.
- colejohnson66 6y ago
  Can you not just push the voice control button and say, “turn on the fog lights”? I thought the idea with the voice control was that everything could be done through it?
  - amluto 6y ago
    Tesla’s voice control is a joke. It makes phone calls and navigates, poorly.
    - ikiris 6y ago
      And sort of controls the radio.
tlrobinson 6y ago
I recently got a Tesla, so maybe it just takes getting used to, but I miss tactile controls. I think a row of knobs along the bottom edge that correspond to the buttons/icons directly above would be the best of both worlds: flexibility of software-defined controls (except the number/spacing becomes fixed), with the tactility of real knobs.
- netsharc 6y ago
  Buttons around the screen, plane MFD-style, would be cool, e.g. from an F16: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fqph.fs.quoracdn.net%2Fmain-qimg-3c70b2d617f2855e7c5f3e5f4d7386b9&f=1&nofb=1 https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    The F-18 (Hornet) had 3 MFDs and was arguably more advanced than most things from star wars in 1983(!!) Oh to have an unlimited budget.
SECProto 6y ago
> Most driving interactions in a Tesla are through the stalk or knob rollers on the steering wheel (that adjust based on situation). It is very well thought out. Does the tesla know that I've changed heading and the sun is now providing some radiative heating and the thermostat can be turned down? Does it know that I got a chip off my windshield that affects the cameras, and I need to manually turn the windshield wipers (or brights, or etc) on and off every time a vehicle passes and sprays me? Maybe I just want a big ol' power/volume knob to turn it off and on easily without looking - most cars have those on the steering wheel and I hate them. (To be clear, I love Tesla and I truly hope they continue to succeed - but even more, I hope Toyota et al get it through their thick heads that BEVs are the future and gain ground in a hurry. Competition should make everyone better...)
- judge2020 6y ago
  > Does the tesla know that I've changed heading and the sun is now providing some radiative heating and the thermostat can be turned down All (well, maybe only those manufactured within the last 5 or 10 years) cars have an auto temperature mode which regulates the temperature for you if it deviates from the set temperature.
  - jfim 6y ago
    The same ambient temperature can feel different if the sun is shining on you or not.
    - jhy 6y ago
      Absolutely. And so they have a light sensor in the dashboard, which will crank up the aircon when the sun is hitting it.
- hebrox 6y ago
  Everything you ask for can be done with actual controls or are done automatically for you.
threeseed 6y ago
> Finally, for the scattering of buttons in a traditional vehicle that are used rarely, you still have to visually scan the entire dash to find it and hope their icon is meaningful No you don't. Many drivers, including myself, will adjust thermostat controls simply through touch and feel.
- adwn 6y ago
  > No you don't. Many drivers, including myself, will adjust thermostat controls simply through touch and feel. Re-read the part that you quoted: > > [...] that are used rarely [...] Unless you rarely use the thermostat controls..?
  - m463 6y ago
    You can just control it through your phone :)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
stretchcat 6y ago
I never use my eyes to find a dash button when driving. This seems like a ridiculous strawman set up to defend touch screens. The only buttons I look at to use are the clock adjust buttons, because they are tiny and flush with the dash, but using those only when parked is easy to do.
- msh 6y ago
  I always have to look at the buttons unless its something I use all the tíme like the blinkers.
m463 6y ago
I think the model 3 has horrible controls. The scroll-wheels are imprecise and feel like a $5 mouse. And because there are only two stalks, it means features are moved to the touchscreen or overloaded (autopilot == PRND depending on context) The model S/X have better controls + a dashboard. Autopilot is controlled by a separate stalk. That said, controlling lights and climate control with tiny touchscreen targets in a moving car is... ludicrous.
FooHentai 6y ago
>Blackberry lost because of their keyboard. Controversial take. I think Blackberry lost primarily because of their locked-in/niche OS at a time when the app scene was exploding. The keyboard if anything was a compelling reason to stay with them, especially in the exec/professionals sector of the market. If blackberry had successfully executed a full iteration of their build/design quality with Android OS at a point where they could have retained their enterprise dominance, I think they would still be a major player today. But it didn't go that way (a major cause for which was the scale of change that would have been needed to pivot BES/BIS early enough). I don't think the keyboard contributed to Blackberry's demise. That weird scroll nubbin, on the other hand.... and let's not forget the 'haptic' touch on the Storm.
- msh 6y ago
  I would argue that the BB keyboards was bad, its just that contemporary alternatives like T9 and the first touchscreens were even worse. I would say that a modern swipe keyboard after training by far beats old style BB keyboards (not real computer keybords where you can use up to 10 fingers).
  - nikau 6y ago
    Actually blackberry keyboards were awesome, I use swype on Android which is pretty good, but the blackberry was less fatiguing. I still miss my blackberry for sending emails. There were keyboard shortcuts for everything too, like press F to forward or R to reply, q to expand display names to email addresses. You could also assign tasks for when you held down a key at the home screen. Most models also had a dedicated hardware mute button with distinct tones for mute/unmute. If you were a heavy user they were much quicker than touch screens. They just sucked at anything unrelated to email, and weren't great for most users who never bother to learn their tools and become efficient.
TeMPOraL 6y ago
> Finally, for the scattering of buttons in a traditional vehicle that are used rarely, you still have to visually scan the entire dash to find it and hope their icon is meaningful. This takes your eyes further from the road than a well positioned, responsive screen. You have to scan the dash roughly in the area you recall the button may be, and identify it visually. After that, you can return your gaze to the road, while your hand finds and manipulates the button. Touchscreens require you to focus your eyes on the button for all the time it takes to find it, press it, and confirm the UI actually registered the press.
- crmrc114 6y ago
  This is why when I am designing HMIs for equipment in the industrial realm I use buttons when the machine operator needs to be watching the work being done. Humans have limited I/O. They CAN feel and touch something as they are looking at something else. However they can only LOOK at one thing at a time. This is still a very heated area of discussion in industrial controls. https://www.controldesign.com/articles/2017/do-you-actually-need-operator-buttons/ https://www.controldesign.com/articles/2017/do-you-actually-...

by gibolt 6y ago

ikiris 6y ago

No, there are still touch screen actions required, which are super distracting if not in FSD mode. Fog lights for example.

gibolt 6y ago
The number required while driving is tiny, available in dedicated top-level menus near the driver, and still voice controllable. I couldn't turn on fog lights in my ICE car without looking for the knob behind the steering wheel, and then fiddling with the options.
adwn 6y ago
> Fog lights for example. I've never driven a Tesla or another car with a touchscreen. I almost never need fog lights, so I wouldn't even know which knob to turn which way in my new car. Doesn't help that it's different for every car manufacturer. I'd actually prefer a touchscreen with big, properly labeled buttons for this.
- henrikschroder 6y ago
  The controls might be different, but the symbols are a global standard.
  - adwn 6y ago
    Yes, but I also need to take my eyes off the road (like for the touchscreen) and look for small symbols in a badly lit corner of the dashboard (unlike for the touchscreen). Look, I'm not arguing for replacing physical controls with touchscreens, I'm just pointing out that it's not as clear-cut as some knob-proponents would have you believe.
    - henrikschroder 6y ago
      Sure, a touchscreen might be better for discovery, for when you need to use a thing you've never used before. Physical controls excel at repeated use though, because you develop muscle memory for it. Imagine if the blinkers had to be activated through the touch screen. That sounds completely ridiculous, right?
      - adwn 6y ago
        > Physical controls excel at repeated use though, because you develop muscle memory for it. Imagine if the blinkers had to be activated through the touch screen. Again, you're arguing against a point of view which I've never professed. Yes, of course it would be ridiculous if you had to activate your blinkers through the touchscreen. Did anyone claim otherwise? Are the blinkers in a Tesla controlled through the touchscreen?
        henrikschroder 6y ago
        > Again, you're arguing against a point of view which I've never professed. Fair enough, but your argument that physical buttons aren't so great basically boils down to "they suck the first time". Which is correct, but in the long run they're simply superior.
colejohnson66 6y ago
Can you not just push the voice control button and say, “turn on the fog lights”? I thought the idea with the voice control was that everything could be done through it?
- amluto 6y ago
  Tesla’s voice control is a joke. It makes phone calls and navigates, poorly.
  - ikiris 6y ago
    And sort of controls the radio.

tlrobinson 6y ago

I recently got a Tesla, so maybe it just takes getting used to, but I miss tactile controls. I think a row of knobs along the bottom edge that correspond to the buttons/icons directly above would be the best of both worlds: flexibility of software-defined controls (except the number/spacing becomes fixed), with the tactility of real knobs.

netsharc 6y ago
Buttons around the screen, plane MFD-style, would be cool, e.g. from an F16: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fqph.fs.quoracdn.net%2Fmain-qimg-3c70b2d617f2855e7c5f3e5f4d7386b9&f=1&nofb=1 https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...
- mhh__ 6y ago
  The F-18 (Hornet) had 3 MFDs and was arguably more advanced than most things from star wars in 1983(!!) Oh to have an unlimited budget.

SECProto 6y ago

> Most driving interactions in a Tesla are through the stalk or knob rollers on the steering wheel (that adjust based on situation). It is very well thought out. Does the tesla know that I've changed heading and the sun is now providing some radiative heating and the thermostat can be turned down? Does it know that I got a chip off my windshield that affects the cameras, and I need to manually turn the windshield wipers (or brights, or etc) on and off every time a vehicle passes and sprays me? Maybe I just want a big ol' power/volume knob to turn it off and on easily without looking - most cars have those on the steering wheel and I hate them. (To be clear, I love Tesla and I truly hope they continue to succeed - but even more, I hope Toyota et al get it through their thick heads that BEVs are the future and gain ground in a hurry. Competition should make everyone better...)

judge2020 6y ago
> Does the tesla know that I've changed heading and the sun is now providing some radiative heating and the thermostat can be turned down All (well, maybe only those manufactured within the last 5 or 10 years) cars have an auto temperature mode which regulates the temperature for you if it deviates from the set temperature.
- jfim 6y ago
  The same ambient temperature can feel different if the sun is shining on you or not.
  - jhy 6y ago
    Absolutely. And so they have a light sensor in the dashboard, which will crank up the aircon when the sun is hitting it.
hebrox 6y ago
Everything you ask for can be done with actual controls or are done automatically for you.

threeseed 6y ago

> Finally, for the scattering of buttons in a traditional vehicle that are used rarely, you still have to visually scan the entire dash to find it and hope their icon is meaningful No you don't. Many drivers, including myself, will adjust thermostat controls simply through touch and feel.

adwn 6y ago
> No you don't. Many drivers, including myself, will adjust thermostat controls simply through touch and feel. Re-read the part that you quoted: > > [...] that are used rarely [...] Unless you rarely use the thermostat controls..?
- m463 6y ago
  You can just control it through your phone :)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

stretchcat 6y ago

I never use my eyes to find a dash button when driving. This seems like a ridiculous strawman set up to defend touch screens. The only buttons I look at to use are the clock adjust buttons, because they are tiny and flush with the dash, but using those only when parked is easy to do.

msh 6y ago
I always have to look at the buttons unless its something I use all the tíme like the blinkers.

m463 6y ago

I think the model 3 has horrible controls. The scroll-wheels are imprecise and feel like a $5 mouse. And because there are only two stalks, it means features are moved to the touchscreen or overloaded (autopilot == PRND depending on context) The model S/X have better controls + a dashboard. Autopilot is controlled by a separate stalk. That said, controlling lights and climate control with tiny touchscreen targets in a moving car is... ludicrous.

FooHentai 6y ago

>Blackberry lost because of their keyboard. Controversial take. I think Blackberry lost primarily because of their locked-in/niche OS at a time when the app scene was exploding. The keyboard if anything was a compelling reason to stay with them, especially in the exec/professionals sector of the market. If blackberry had successfully executed a full iteration of their build/design quality with Android OS at a point where they could have retained their enterprise dominance, I think they would still be a major player today. But it didn't go that way (a major cause for which was the scale of change that would have been needed to pivot BES/BIS early enough). I don't think the keyboard contributed to Blackberry's demise. That weird scroll nubbin, on the other hand.... and let's not forget the 'haptic' touch on the Storm.

msh 6y ago
I would argue that the BB keyboards was bad, its just that contemporary alternatives like T9 and the first touchscreens were even worse. I would say that a modern swipe keyboard after training by far beats old style BB keyboards (not real computer keybords where you can use up to 10 fingers).
- nikau 6y ago
  Actually blackberry keyboards were awesome, I use swype on Android which is pretty good, but the blackberry was less fatiguing. I still miss my blackberry for sending emails. There were keyboard shortcuts for everything too, like press F to forward or R to reply, q to expand display names to email addresses. You could also assign tasks for when you held down a key at the home screen. Most models also had a dedicated hardware mute button with distinct tones for mute/unmute. If you were a heavy user they were much quicker than touch screens. They just sucked at anything unrelated to email, and weren't great for most users who never bother to learn their tools and become efficient.

TeMPOraL 6y ago

> Finally, for the scattering of buttons in a traditional vehicle that are used rarely, you still have to visually scan the entire dash to find it and hope their icon is meaningful. This takes your eyes further from the road than a well positioned, responsive screen. You have to scan the dash roughly in the area you recall the button may be, and identify it visually. After that, you can return your gaze to the road, while your hand finds and manipulates the button. Touchscreens require you to focus your eyes on the button for all the time it takes to find it, press it, and confirm the UI actually registered the press.

crmrc114 6y ago
This is why when I am designing HMIs for equipment in the industrial realm I use buttons when the machine operator needs to be watching the work being done. Humans have limited I/O. They CAN feel and touch something as they are looking at something else. However they can only LOOK at one thing at a time. This is still a very heated area of discussion in industrial controls. https://www.controldesign.com/articles/2017/do-you-actually-need-operator-buttons/ https://www.controldesign.com/articles/2017/do-you-actually-...