6 ms·

Read "Sapiens" 35 hour working week as a hunter gather is far preferable to the 60 + home chores of the homo softwaricus.

sokoloff 6y ago
I would way rather program 60 hours a week than live as the hunter-gatherers did.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  I am not sure, in there own world some tribes might have been far happier than 95% of society is today
  - dantheman 6y ago
    That is until they die from a simple infection.
    - geodel 6y ago
      Seems better than perennial back pain from sitting long hours and getting brain fried from implementing same logic of micro-service 1000th time for a 'challenging' project.
      - winston_smith 6y ago
        Go try it and let us know how it works out
        oblio 6y ago
        This virtue signalling about hunter gatherers is funny. It's not the first time I've seen these kinds of discussions :-)
    - taneq 6y ago
      Or starvation, or being eaten by a grue. People who think being a hunter-gatherer sounds great should go try it, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. They don't because actually, living in civilization with abundant cheap food, clean running hot and cold water, indoor plumbing, heating, air conditioning, and entertainment is great.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > People who think being a hunter-gatherer sounds great should go try it, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. Well, I mean, except property rights and the people that will defend them in most of the places in the planet suitable for human habitation.
        winston_smith 6y ago
        Plenty of hunter gatherer tribes still around for the people crazy enough to want to join them
        lodovic 6y ago
        It is not likely any of them will gladly accept new members.
        winston_smith 6y ago
        Gaining acceptance by a tribe and finding ways to not die if you ever become disfavored seems like part of the whole hunter-gatherer package, don't you think? They tend not to be very wealthy by modern standards. Maybe you could ingratiate yourself to them with them gifts of things that require modern manufacturing infrastructure.
        ClumsyPilot 6y ago
        Your argument literally defeats itself. You were born into the tribe, and stayed there your entire life. Also there were no laws on hunting, setting traps, etc.
    - lovecg 6y ago
      And don’t forget murder. So, so much murder: https://ourworldindata.org/ethnographic-and-archaeological-evidence-on-violent-deaths https://ourworldindata.org/ethnographic-and-archaeological-e...
  - imtringued 6y ago
    I don't think I am able to make this judgement but I can talk about what happened after hunter gatherer tribes disappeared. If you are a hunter gatherer you just need a good hunt every now and then. There is no pressure to perform work all day if you get enough food. This is different if you are a farmer. Farming is highly labor intensive. There is so much work to do that you are never done. You will have to repeat the same motions every single day. Swing the same tools the exact same way. People are tied to their land and it is possible to conquer the land violently. You are dependent on a military force which implies that a local ruler must collect taxes to pay the soldiers. That ruler also has power over you which can easily be abused. Democracy is definitively fairer than having an authoritarian ruler but it can be subject to tyranny of the majority or the minority and still cause failure in leadership.
mc32 6y ago
Sprain an ankle and you’re out of food that week. Break a leg, if you’re lucky, you’ll a burden for s month. On the other hand, your teeth may be healthier than that of people who gulp sugary drinks.
taneq 6y ago
I'm always sceptical when I see people quoting 50-60+ hours a week as a "normal" workload. I don't doubt that many people spend that much time in the office but I can't believe they're actually productive for that many hours - I know for myself (as, I think, a reasonably effective developer) I can't sustain much more than 40 productive hours a week for long.
ivan_gammel 6y ago
I would not refer to Harari in any context as an author worth reading. „Sapiens“ is a popular book, but scientifically it’s at least questionable.
- lovecg 6y ago
  I think you have to approach it with a certain mindset. I didn’t read it as a source of reliable history, but I definitely got a lot of value out of it. He has a way of presenting ideas from perspectives I haven’t considered before. In fact disagreeing with him and trying to find evidence against his often too simple narratives is a fun exercise on its own, and I learned a lot just from those tangents.

sokoloff 6y ago

I would way rather program 60 hours a week than live as the hunter-gatherers did.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
I am not sure, in there own world some tribes might have been far happier than 95% of society is today
- dantheman 6y ago
  That is until they die from a simple infection.
  - geodel 6y ago
    Seems better than perennial back pain from sitting long hours and getting brain fried from implementing same logic of micro-service 1000th time for a 'challenging' project.
    - winston_smith 6y ago
      Go try it and let us know how it works out
      - oblio 6y ago
        This virtue signalling about hunter gatherers is funny. It's not the first time I've seen these kinds of discussions :-)
  - taneq 6y ago
    Or starvation, or being eaten by a grue. People who think being a hunter-gatherer sounds great should go try it, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. They don't because actually, living in civilization with abundant cheap food, clean running hot and cold water, indoor plumbing, heating, air conditioning, and entertainment is great.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > People who think being a hunter-gatherer sounds great should go try it, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. Well, I mean, except property rights and the people that will defend them in most of the places in the planet suitable for human habitation.
      - winston_smith 6y ago
        Plenty of hunter gatherer tribes still around for the people crazy enough to want to join them
        lodovic 6y ago
        It is not likely any of them will gladly accept new members.
        winston_smith 6y ago
        Gaining acceptance by a tribe and finding ways to not die if you ever become disfavored seems like part of the whole hunter-gatherer package, don't you think? They tend not to be very wealthy by modern standards. Maybe you could ingratiate yourself to them with them gifts of things that require modern manufacturing infrastructure.
        ClumsyPilot 6y ago
        Your argument literally defeats itself. You were born into the tribe, and stayed there your entire life. Also there were no laws on hunting, setting traps, etc.
  - lovecg 6y ago
    And don’t forget murder. So, so much murder: https://ourworldindata.org/ethnographic-and-archaeological-evidence-on-violent-deaths https://ourworldindata.org/ethnographic-and-archaeological-e...
- imtringued 6y ago
  I don't think I am able to make this judgement but I can talk about what happened after hunter gatherer tribes disappeared. If you are a hunter gatherer you just need a good hunt every now and then. There is no pressure to perform work all day if you get enough food. This is different if you are a farmer. Farming is highly labor intensive. There is so much work to do that you are never done. You will have to repeat the same motions every single day. Swing the same tools the exact same way. People are tied to their land and it is possible to conquer the land violently. You are dependent on a military force which implies that a local ruler must collect taxes to pay the soldiers. That ruler also has power over you which can easily be abused. Democracy is definitively fairer than having an authoritarian ruler but it can be subject to tyranny of the majority or the minority and still cause failure in leadership.

mc32 6y ago

Sprain an ankle and you’re out of food that week. Break a leg, if you’re lucky, you’ll a burden for s month. On the other hand, your teeth may be healthier than that of people who gulp sugary drinks.

taneq 6y ago

I'm always sceptical when I see people quoting 50-60+ hours a week as a "normal" workload. I don't doubt that many people spend that much time in the office but I can't believe they're actually productive for that many hours - I know for myself (as, I think, a reasonably effective developer) I can't sustain much more than 40 productive hours a week for long.

ivan_gammel 6y ago

I would not refer to Harari in any context as an author worth reading. „Sapiens“ is a popular book, but scientifically it’s at least questionable.

lovecg 6y ago
I think you have to approach it with a certain mindset. I didn’t read it as a source of reliable history, but I definitely got a lot of value out of it. He has a way of presenting ideas from perspectives I haven’t considered before. In fact disagreeing with him and trying to find evidence against his often too simple narratives is a fun exercise on its own, and I learned a lot just from those tangents.