10 ms·

This was one of the major draws for me for moving to Europe in my early 20s (from the US). After working one year in the US and having one week of vacation, it

by wheels 15y ago

This was one of the major draws for me for moving to Europe in my early 20s (from the US). After working one year in the US and having one week of vacation, it was bordering on surreal to have 6. That said, most Americans wouldn't like the European pay scales. While a developer gets 3-6 times the vacation in Germany, they make half as much money. For me it was a great trade; I still had a middle class income and spent my 20s bouncing around the world visiting more than 30 countries on 5 continents, with zero gaps in my employment. Now that I'm an employer, I still see it as a great trade: employees are a lot cheaper here, and seem to be happier. But again, while most American software developers would love to have more vacation, I've heard them also repeat ludicrous things about how they can "barely survive on $60k/year".

colomon 15y ago
That's what's so surreal about this entire discussion. "I have 7 weeks paid vacation!" as if employers were paying them for 52 weeks' work and then were shocked every year to discover that they only get 45 weeks of work.
- david927 15y ago
  That's not true. Europe is very regional in its pay structures. You can make very little in Berlin, move to Frankfurt or Brussels and make a fortune. The same is true in the States: what you make in Palo Alto is multiples more than Cleveland. I don't see that pay rates have anything to do with vacation allowances.
mapgrep 15y ago
The reason American workers say they can barely survive on $60k a year is that they pay out of pocket for things German workers can take for granted: * Comfortable retirement - 401k contributions. Yes America has social security but it's not a ton of money compared to other national pensions and if you're young you worry about it not being around at all by the time you need it. * Unemployment - You should probably have ~6 months living expenses saved up, if not a year, in case you get laid off. U.S. unemployment benefits are fairly marginal (~700 per month cap when I used them in 2002, which you owe tax on), especially compared to Germany/France. * Life insurance - If you have kids and/or a non working spouse you need to make sure they will be OK if you die, since we have such a weak social safety net. * Education for your kids - 529 and educational IRA plans allow people to save for our increasingly expensive higher education even before the child is born (I-Bonds can be used this way). Cuts to public colleges have been harsh this year so don't think those will save you. Yes many Americans blow their salaries on dumb consumerist crap, and tend to overinvest in things like real estate. But even the prudent ones will be trying to jack up their salaries because there are SO many things you are supposed to save for to be considered a responsible American adult.
- chrisaycock 15y ago
  And not to mention: * Healthcare - Health insurance is often a luxury in America. The elderly have Medicare, but there is (currently) no safety for most citizens. * Public transportation - Many US cities don't have adequate bus service. Just anyone who lives outside NYC or a college town will need a car.
  - OstiaAntica 15y ago
    Medicaid provides a health insurance safety net for tens of millions of working and poor Americans...in fact there are more Americans in a federal health program (Medicaid, SCHIP, Medicare) than the entire population Germany.
    - Maakuth 15y ago
      I've heard that Medicare + Medicaid actually cost a bigger part of your national budget than in Europe, yet it ends up creating a weaker coverage health service coverage for only part of your people, compared to covering everyone in most of the European countries. There's differences between countries here obviously, but US healthcare seems to be less efficient than the European systems.
      - camiller 15y ago
        Medical in the US cost more but there is "more" available. If I were at my doctors office right now (3:13 Central time) and he felt I needed a MRI, I could have one before 5:00. I've often heard that in a non-emergency situation there can be weeks of waiting to get an MRI in some European countries. I have also seen a comment from a guy in the UK who had to have his arm re-broken for a cast to be put on because it had already started to heal crooked while waiting several days. A few years ago I spent some time digging through official government reports on healthcare in several (well limited to English speaking) countries and found things like >8 hour wait times for emergency services, >30 day waits (in some places) for some non-emergency services, etc. Yes, we pay more, but the flip side of that is faster access even in non-critical situations. In my case in February, I was at the doctor at 11:00AM on a Friday, MRI at about 1:30PM, and by 4:00PM I was scheduling surgery for Monday for gallbladder removal. I could have probably waited, my discomfort was relatively mild at that point, but I didn't have to.
nolok 15y ago
Question to non-french here, does your advertised salary include the employer's tax ? For exemple here in France, on the salary my employer pays, it's divided pretty much like this: 40% employer's taxes, 20% employee's taxes, 40% final amount of money you put in the bank when all is said and done. BUT my negociated salary, the one I signed on, never included employer's taxes, so for a 100€ salary I never discussed 100€ or even thought of it at any point, my contract has always been about 60€ (and then I pay about 20€ in taxes). For me what that really changes is that: - if employer's taxes increses, I have no idea about it, and my pay check doesn't change at all (neither if it decreases) - our perceived salary seems to be a lot lower than some other countries. So what I'm asking is, when you guys speak about that kind of salary being way too low, is it a "complete" salary or is it after employer's taxes ? I live with less that those 60k$/42k€ and I can afford a nice middle class life in the middle of Paris plus vacations every year ... PS: actually if you look at french job offers, you will see "brut" and/or "net" salaries, brut is pre employee's taxes, net is post.
- whakojacko 15y ago
  In the US, yes. The various taxes that employers must pay are paid separately, not taken out of their salary. If someone is talking about $60k or whatever, their takehome is $60k-federal income tax - social security tax - medicare tax - state income tax (some states don't have this, but most do)- local income tax (rare). On top of that, you are also likely going to have deductions for health/dental/etc insurance, and then pre-tax payments to your retirement plan (401k). Separately, the company must pay a few other taxes on that $60k (nowhere near 40%, though)
  - camiller 15y ago
    For FICA (SS/Medicare) the employer pays as much as the employee. The FICA rate is 15.3% of your base pay(there is an upper limit), you pay half and the employer pays half (except for 2011, stimulus package and all, the employee part of the SS part of FICA is reduced). Typically with most large employers the employer pays 70-80% of the medical insurance premiums, varies by company. Same for Dental, long term disability, etc. Typically the employers overall cost is 20-30% of your salary.
dsmithn 15y ago
I've managed to get the best of both worlds, working for a German company in America. 28 paid days off, plus 7 holidays.
pnathan 15y ago
housing costs are amazingly obscene in some cities. Based on my minimal looking around, the cost of living is going to account for a lot of those "barely survive" stories. That plus nice cars, eating out, and buying iPads.
richcollins 15y ago
Or you could be a contract developer in the US, make 2x US employee salary and take vacation whenever you don't have an active project (months if you want).
- canadiancreed 15y ago
  With the only caveat being to get that next contract. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, it is the way to go. You just need the constant stream of work, which is easier said then done.
  - marshray 15y ago
    ...and the other caveat of trying to obtain medical coverage.
    - canadiancreed 15y ago
      depends on where you live. Here outside of dental it's all covered. And the local CoC offers full dental/prescription coverage for a decent amount per employee.
- r00fus 15y ago
  You can do similar in Europe as well. At least when I was there, many of my colleagues at Schneider Electric were contractors making decent money (even for US rates). Actually being a contractor in a country with good social safety net is even better... as you're employment isn't responsible for healthcare benefits* , your options are much better. * France has a public/private deal where you (or your employer) can pay extra for better service, but the baseline social safety net is quite ample.
tallanvor 15y ago
Pay varies widely in Europe. I work in Norway, get 6 weeks vacation a year, and make a lot more than I would in the US. Even after accounting for higher taxes and living expenses (rent, food, etc), I can still set aside almost $1000 more per month than I would if I were in the US. When I talk to people for the first time they're always asking me if I'll be moving back to the US. My response is maybe someday, but for now I'd be crazy to give all that up!

by wheels 15y ago

colomon 15y ago

That's what's so surreal about this entire discussion. "I have 7 weeks paid vacation!" as if employers were paying them for 52 weeks' work and then were shocked every year to discover that they only get 45 weeks of work.

david927 15y ago
That's not true. Europe is very regional in its pay structures. You can make very little in Berlin, move to Frankfurt or Brussels and make a fortune. The same is true in the States: what you make in Palo Alto is multiples more than Cleveland. I don't see that pay rates have anything to do with vacation allowances.

mapgrep 15y ago

The reason American workers say they can barely survive on $60k a year is that they pay out of pocket for things German workers can take for granted: * Comfortable retirement - 401k contributions. Yes America has social security but it's not a ton of money compared to other national pensions and if you're young you worry about it not being around at all by the time you need it. * Unemployment - You should probably have ~6 months living expenses saved up, if not a year, in case you get laid off. U.S. unemployment benefits are fairly marginal (~700 per month cap when I used them in 2002, which you owe tax on), especially compared to Germany/France. * Life insurance - If you have kids and/or a non working spouse you need to make sure they will be OK if you die, since we have such a weak social safety net. * Education for your kids - 529 and educational IRA plans allow people to save for our increasingly expensive higher education even before the child is born (I-Bonds can be used this way). Cuts to public colleges have been harsh this year so don't think those will save you. Yes many Americans blow their salaries on dumb consumerist crap, and tend to overinvest in things like real estate. But even the prudent ones will be trying to jack up their salaries because there are SO many things you are supposed to save for to be considered a responsible American adult.

chrisaycock 15y ago
And not to mention: * Healthcare - Health insurance is often a luxury in America. The elderly have Medicare, but there is (currently) no safety for most citizens. * Public transportation - Many US cities don't have adequate bus service. Just anyone who lives outside NYC or a college town will need a car.
- OstiaAntica 15y ago
  Medicaid provides a health insurance safety net for tens of millions of working and poor Americans...in fact there are more Americans in a federal health program (Medicaid, SCHIP, Medicare) than the entire population Germany.
  - Maakuth 15y ago
    I've heard that Medicare + Medicaid actually cost a bigger part of your national budget than in Europe, yet it ends up creating a weaker coverage health service coverage for only part of your people, compared to covering everyone in most of the European countries. There's differences between countries here obviously, but US healthcare seems to be less efficient than the European systems.
    - camiller 15y ago
      Medical in the US cost more but there is "more" available. If I were at my doctors office right now (3:13 Central time) and he felt I needed a MRI, I could have one before 5:00. I've often heard that in a non-emergency situation there can be weeks of waiting to get an MRI in some European countries. I have also seen a comment from a guy in the UK who had to have his arm re-broken for a cast to be put on because it had already started to heal crooked while waiting several days. A few years ago I spent some time digging through official government reports on healthcare in several (well limited to English speaking) countries and found things like >8 hour wait times for emergency services, >30 day waits (in some places) for some non-emergency services, etc. Yes, we pay more, but the flip side of that is faster access even in non-critical situations. In my case in February, I was at the doctor at 11:00AM on a Friday, MRI at about 1:30PM, and by 4:00PM I was scheduling surgery for Monday for gallbladder removal. I could have probably waited, my discomfort was relatively mild at that point, but I didn't have to.

nolok 15y ago

Question to non-french here, does your advertised salary include the employer's tax ? For exemple here in France, on the salary my employer pays, it's divided pretty much like this: 40% employer's taxes, 20% employee's taxes, 40% final amount of money you put in the bank when all is said and done. BUT my negociated salary, the one I signed on, never included employer's taxes, so for a 100€ salary I never discussed 100€ or even thought of it at any point, my contract has always been about 60€ (and then I pay about 20€ in taxes). For me what that really changes is that: - if employer's taxes increses, I have no idea about it, and my pay check doesn't change at all (neither if it decreases) - our perceived salary seems to be a lot lower than some other countries. So what I'm asking is, when you guys speak about that kind of salary being way too low, is it a "complete" salary or is it after employer's taxes ? I live with less that those 60k$/42k€ and I can afford a nice middle class life in the middle of Paris plus vacations every year ... PS: actually if you look at french job offers, you will see "brut" and/or "net" salaries, brut is pre employee's taxes, net is post.

whakojacko 15y ago
In the US, yes. The various taxes that employers must pay are paid separately, not taken out of their salary. If someone is talking about $60k or whatever, their takehome is $60k-federal income tax - social security tax - medicare tax - state income tax (some states don't have this, but most do)- local income tax (rare). On top of that, you are also likely going to have deductions for health/dental/etc insurance, and then pre-tax payments to your retirement plan (401k). Separately, the company must pay a few other taxes on that $60k (nowhere near 40%, though)
- camiller 15y ago
  For FICA (SS/Medicare) the employer pays as much as the employee. The FICA rate is 15.3% of your base pay(there is an upper limit), you pay half and the employer pays half (except for 2011, stimulus package and all, the employee part of the SS part of FICA is reduced). Typically with most large employers the employer pays 70-80% of the medical insurance premiums, varies by company. Same for Dental, long term disability, etc. Typically the employers overall cost is 20-30% of your salary.

dsmithn 15y ago

I've managed to get the best of both worlds, working for a German company in America. 28 paid days off, plus 7 holidays.

pnathan 15y ago

housing costs are amazingly obscene in some cities. Based on my minimal looking around, the cost of living is going to account for a lot of those "barely survive" stories. That plus nice cars, eating out, and buying iPads.

richcollins 15y ago

Or you could be a contract developer in the US, make 2x US employee salary and take vacation whenever you don't have an active project (months if you want).

canadiancreed 15y ago
With the only caveat being to get that next contract. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, it is the way to go. You just need the constant stream of work, which is easier said then done.
- marshray 15y ago
  ...and the other caveat of trying to obtain medical coverage.
  - canadiancreed 15y ago
    depends on where you live. Here outside of dental it's all covered. And the local CoC offers full dental/prescription coverage for a decent amount per employee.
r00fus 15y ago
You can do similar in Europe as well. At least when I was there, many of my colleagues at Schneider Electric were contractors making decent money (even for US rates). Actually being a contractor in a country with good social safety net is even better... as you're employment isn't responsible for healthcare benefits* , your options are much better. * France has a public/private deal where you (or your employer) can pay extra for better service, but the baseline social safety net is quite ample.

tallanvor 15y ago

Pay varies widely in Europe. I work in Norway, get 6 weeks vacation a year, and make a lot more than I would in the US. Even after accounting for higher taxes and living expenses (rent, food, etc), I can still set aside almost $1000 more per month than I would if I were in the US. When I talk to people for the first time they're always asking me if I'll be moving back to the US. My response is maybe someday, but for now I'd be crazy to give all that up!