6 ms·

I love Jason’s response and think it carries the right tone and is delivered near flawlessly. It’s clearly frustrating to deal with Apple’s platform lockdown, a

by dcow 6y ago

I love Jason’s response and think it carries the right tone and is delivered near flawlessly. It’s clearly frustrating to deal with Apple’s platform lockdown, and he captures such in a professional and rational manner. Bravo. What bothers me is that I’ve experienced an increasing number of maintainers of supposed cross platform projects simply not care about macOS anymore to the extent that they’re openly hostile towards macOS users. I know what you do is free and I have no entitlement to anything from you, but don't antagonize me when I add suggestions to open discussion and feature requests to your issue tracker to try and help participate in improving the way your project works on macOS. I’m probably willing to do some work but also need to get the lay of the land first. I would challenge those maintainers to be honest. Yes, it’s your time, but if you’re not interested in spending it actually supporting macOS, don't market your project as a cross platform. Like it or not the macOS platform is changing and if you’re not along for the ride don’t grief everyone who is (either by choice or by requirement). Just to be crystal clear: Json does not fall in this bucket, but this topic in general seems all too familiar lately.

liaukovv 6y ago
Being cross-platform is not the same as supporting every platform in existence
formerly_proven 6y ago
FWIW in the projects I've involved in we do get macOS-specific requests and reports from time to time but I have yet to see a macOS dev step up and contribute. There is lots of cross-platform software, which works on Linux, Windows and even BSDs; you can't expect (or feel entitled for) open source maintainers to then also go ahead and buy expensive Apple hardware just to support their idiosyncratic almost-BSD-but-not-really-UNIX OS.
- pimeys 6y ago
  This is especially annoying when getting to the lower levels of programming. I'm maintaining a Rust client for SQL Server, and in recent OS X versions Apple decided with their secure framework to not support the measly TLS certificates of SQL Server (Azure, Docker). Now I have a ticket with no real help. How I finally solved this is I got a Mac Mini from cloud, I could with a lots of trouble finally start docker in it (needed a desktop to click some icons) and test my code. This meant statically linking OpenSSL instead, which is not the greatest from a security point of view. All of this took six months, and it was really hard to get Mac users to commit anything. It was ridiculously annoying to write and test without buying an Apple computer. After this experience I just don't want to support any of their products anymore. Too much time wasted.
- Klonoar 6y ago
  One thing I've noticed, as someone who's helped out on the macOS side of things for an open source project or two, is that the Mac/AppKit/Cocoa documentation issue is a barrier here. There are absolutely OSS maintainers who wouldn't mind patching things for macOS... if they could figure out the expected behavior/etc. I've fixed things for projects that I only know about from plumbing around in AppKit for a few years now.
nbzso 6y ago
As a long-time Apple user, I agree with developers on this. Give it time and they will abandon the platform, which is not geared to be anything more than a vertically integrated channel for money. "but if you’re not interested in spending it actually supporting macOS, don't market your project as a cross platform" This is again Apple driven effect. Most of the Open Source projects are cross-platform because of Mac Os X, not what Mac Os is now. I advocate for Linux as a platform with real control over computing and hope developers realizing that this is a chance for Linux to become desktop heaven. My main workflow is design-focused and if software like Affinity Design or Sketch was available today I will remove anything Apple-related from my job. There is a lot of graphic design and video professionals that will jump the ship. We have Blender, and Resolve is working under Linux, but Inkscape and Gimp are not capable enough to replace Sketch/Affinity/Adobe Illustrator/Photoshop.
- dcow 6y ago
  I agree and I try to use Linux as much as possible, just to be clear. I want Apple to feel the effects of their lockdown on their platform. Right now just directing grief at macOS users who are trying to contribute to a project that claims support for macOS in their readme is not really fair. Give Apple the middle finger and drop support for their platform officially!
  - nbzso 6y ago
    What average or semi pro user (the core New Apple User) have not contemplated is that technologies on a macro scale at the current moment are a step towards the political agenda of control of governments and corporations over people. This is not a conspiracy. This is the official plan for the 4th industrial revolution by WEF. (https://tinyurl.com/yyfmj7gk https://tinyurl.com/yyfmj7gk). The goal is to abolish private property and live in a real time data driven world which is clearly a Communistic Agenda "The theory of the communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property." - Karl Marx. In this context big corporations are cooperating with governments under supervision of WEF to implement general control with global AI infrastructure (actually there is EU program for supercomputers network already in place). Apple, Google, Microsoft and Amazon are part of this network of influence and they will sell user data to governments on demand. The idea of personal computing without authorisation(Digital ID https://tinyurl.com/y5he2qr9 https://tinyurl.com/y5he2qr9) and oversight (telemetry) will be contrary to the values of the new Digital Utopia. Obviously big tech is politically driven and will be protected from scrutiny in the future in this context. Literature: "A Framework for Developing a National Artificial Intelligence Strategy" - WEF link - (https://tinyurl.com/y6lwfdcy https://tinyurl.com/y6lwfdcy).
viraptor 6y ago
You can be "cross-platform" in many ways. In practice if you don't run MacOS yourself, there's just no reasonable way to support MacOS at all. It literally costs hundreds of dollars to get a compatible test environment, while most other systems (including Windows) you can download and run a in VM for free. In practice if the MacOS support takes more than a quick headers / types update, it will likely need more care in the future as well. That means you need not just a driveby fix, but a continued commitment from someone to ensure compatibility. This is not out of hostility towards the users, but I'll keep calling things that don't work on MacOS cross-platform. (Yes, it sucks; You can vote with your money to stop that situation)
- cesarb 6y ago
  > It literally costs hundreds of dollars to get a compatible test environment, while most other systems (including Windows) you can download and run a in VM for free. Not even that; I've developed for Windows using Wine plus a mingw cross-compiler packaged by the Linux distribution I was using. Another alternative would be ReactOS in a VM.
- murphy1312 6y ago
  agreed, as a developer i don't need an android device to test, just open a simulator and most things will work. on the other hand you cant even compile for ios with a linux/windows pc.
  - SSLy 6y ago
    You can put OS X in a Windows or Linux hosted hypervisor, but the Apple doesn't want you to know about it.
    - viraptor 6y ago
      You can, but it's illegal. You're only allowed to virtualise MacOS on MacOS host. You also have to obtain the system which as far as I can tell you can't buy anymore - you can only upgrade to.
webmobdev 6y ago
> What bothers me is that I’ve experienced an increasing number of maintainers of supposed cross platform projects simply not care about macOS anymore to the extent that they’re openly hostile towards macOS users. So blame Apple for it - why do you blame the developers? Apple wants you to forget that it is the developers that add value to a platform, and yet it charges them for the "privilege" of creating apps for their platform. And then they are openly and increasingly hostile to developers who do not conform to their business model and do not want to pay them or distribute the app through their app store - and thus they keep crippling API after API to make sure that the developers toe their line. It is because of Apple's hostile attitude to developers that they no longer want to invest (or rather waste) their time on Apple platform. Here's a real life example of an app that is now no longer viable on macOS because it doesn't suit Apple's goals - https://medium.com/tripmode/apple-started-hiding-the-traffic-of-its-own-mac-apps-9dc83c5a9c5b https://medium.com/tripmode/apple-started-hiding-the-traffic... ...
- studius 6y ago
  While Apple isn't right on everything, they are a business, and they have the responsibility to decide what they will provide and what they won't. If they can't change X because it will screw over critical application group Y, then developers can complain as much as they want until they have some practical way to deal with that. If they were constantly screwing over Y, where Y was different depending on the problem, they could eventually screw up all of the apps, users, and developers.
  - webmobdev 6y ago
    Yes, developers on Apple platform need to be more vocal with their criticism and, if necessary, even boycott their platforms to be heard.
    - Macha 6y ago
      These are people that are not Apple developers however, they're cross platform developers, and support Mac OS so long as the burden is not too great (or simply allow others to do the work of supporting Mac OS in some cases).
syshum 6y ago
>> if you’re not interested in spending it actually supporting macOS, don't market your project as a cross platform. That is ironic, since for years I have seen "Cross Platform" to mean Win + Mac, and exclude linux users. now that is Win + Lin due to how hostile the Apple Ecosystem is to anything "not invented by apple" and you want to blame the open source devs for that...
allx64 6y ago
Perhaps they turn hostile because of macOS users. Such users have submitted sloppy this-works-for-me-style build patches to my project, which later were deemed incorrect by actual macOS experts. I had to do everything over again. Then I was rudely accused of not using cmake, when autotools perfectly support cross builds (better than cmake on Linux). It is not my problem if a purported Unix does not ship gcc or if clang cross builds are painful. Go and install gcc! If Apple were interested in being supported, they'd fix their tool chain and provide free testing infrastructure to OSS developers.
enriquto 6y ago
> What bothers me is that I’ve experienced an increasing number of maintainers of supposed cross platform projects simply not care about macOS anymore to the extent that they’re openly hostile towards macOS users This is not bothering. This is a very fortunate situation. I hope this process happens faster! What I don't understand is your point of view. It is not these sane developers who are "hostile" towards users. It is Apple who is callously hostile towards users and developers. By degrading the macOS experience, these developers are making the world a better place.
mannykannot 6y ago
"Cross-platform" is not a promise that it will work on every platform, and saying that to be cross-platform without that including MacOS is "hostile towards MacOS users" is unreasonable. The most you can reasonably hope for, in something you can get for free, is that if it says it works on a given platform, then it is reasonably functional there.
Klonoar 6y ago
You know, I thought I was the only one who felt this way - but it is really annoying. I help out on an open source emulator/game project and wound up becoming the de-facto "Mac guy". I don't mind it, but I do find myself annoyed with the people who deride the platform for not being either Windows or Linux.

by dcow 6y ago

liaukovv 6y ago

Being cross-platform is not the same as supporting every platform in existence

formerly_proven 6y ago

FWIW in the projects I've involved in we do get macOS-specific requests and reports from time to time but I have yet to see a macOS dev step up and contribute. There is lots of cross-platform software, which works on Linux, Windows and even BSDs; you can't expect (or feel entitled for) open source maintainers to then also go ahead and buy expensive Apple hardware just to support their idiosyncratic almost-BSD-but-not-really-UNIX OS.

pimeys 6y ago
This is especially annoying when getting to the lower levels of programming. I'm maintaining a Rust client for SQL Server, and in recent OS X versions Apple decided with their secure framework to not support the measly TLS certificates of SQL Server (Azure, Docker). Now I have a ticket with no real help. How I finally solved this is I got a Mac Mini from cloud, I could with a lots of trouble finally start docker in it (needed a desktop to click some icons) and test my code. This meant statically linking OpenSSL instead, which is not the greatest from a security point of view. All of this took six months, and it was really hard to get Mac users to commit anything. It was ridiculously annoying to write and test without buying an Apple computer. After this experience I just don't want to support any of their products anymore. Too much time wasted.
Klonoar 6y ago
One thing I've noticed, as someone who's helped out on the macOS side of things for an open source project or two, is that the Mac/AppKit/Cocoa documentation issue is a barrier here. There are absolutely OSS maintainers who wouldn't mind patching things for macOS... if they could figure out the expected behavior/etc. I've fixed things for projects that I only know about from plumbing around in AppKit for a few years now.

nbzso 6y ago

As a long-time Apple user, I agree with developers on this. Give it time and they will abandon the platform, which is not geared to be anything more than a vertically integrated channel for money. "but if you’re not interested in spending it actually supporting macOS, don't market your project as a cross platform" This is again Apple driven effect. Most of the Open Source projects are cross-platform because of Mac Os X, not what Mac Os is now. I advocate for Linux as a platform with real control over computing and hope developers realizing that this is a chance for Linux to become desktop heaven. My main workflow is design-focused and if software like Affinity Design or Sketch was available today I will remove anything Apple-related from my job. There is a lot of graphic design and video professionals that will jump the ship. We have Blender, and Resolve is working under Linux, but Inkscape and Gimp are not capable enough to replace Sketch/Affinity/Adobe Illustrator/Photoshop.

dcow 6y ago
I agree and I try to use Linux as much as possible, just to be clear. I want Apple to feel the effects of their lockdown on their platform. Right now just directing grief at macOS users who are trying to contribute to a project that claims support for macOS in their readme is not really fair. Give Apple the middle finger and drop support for their platform officially!
- nbzso 6y ago
  What average or semi pro user (the core New Apple User) have not contemplated is that technologies on a macro scale at the current moment are a step towards the political agenda of control of governments and corporations over people. This is not a conspiracy. This is the official plan for the 4th industrial revolution by WEF. (https://tinyurl.com/yyfmj7gk https://tinyurl.com/yyfmj7gk). The goal is to abolish private property and live in a real time data driven world which is clearly a Communistic Agenda "The theory of the communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property." - Karl Marx. In this context big corporations are cooperating with governments under supervision of WEF to implement general control with global AI infrastructure (actually there is EU program for supercomputers network already in place). Apple, Google, Microsoft and Amazon are part of this network of influence and they will sell user data to governments on demand. The idea of personal computing without authorisation(Digital ID https://tinyurl.com/y5he2qr9 https://tinyurl.com/y5he2qr9) and oversight (telemetry) will be contrary to the values of the new Digital Utopia. Obviously big tech is politically driven and will be protected from scrutiny in the future in this context. Literature: "A Framework for Developing a National Artificial Intelligence Strategy" - WEF link - (https://tinyurl.com/y6lwfdcy https://tinyurl.com/y6lwfdcy).

viraptor 6y ago

You can be "cross-platform" in many ways. In practice if you don't run MacOS yourself, there's just no reasonable way to support MacOS at all. It literally costs hundreds of dollars to get a compatible test environment, while most other systems (including Windows) you can download and run a in VM for free. In practice if the MacOS support takes more than a quick headers / types update, it will likely need more care in the future as well. That means you need not just a driveby fix, but a continued commitment from someone to ensure compatibility. This is not out of hostility towards the users, but I'll keep calling things that don't work on MacOS cross-platform. (Yes, it sucks; You can vote with your money to stop that situation)

cesarb 6y ago
> It literally costs hundreds of dollars to get a compatible test environment, while most other systems (including Windows) you can download and run a in VM for free. Not even that; I've developed for Windows using Wine plus a mingw cross-compiler packaged by the Linux distribution I was using. Another alternative would be ReactOS in a VM.
murphy1312 6y ago
agreed, as a developer i don't need an android device to test, just open a simulator and most things will work. on the other hand you cant even compile for ios with a linux/windows pc.
- SSLy 6y ago
  You can put OS X in a Windows or Linux hosted hypervisor, but the Apple doesn't want you to know about it.
  - viraptor 6y ago
    You can, but it's illegal. You're only allowed to virtualise MacOS on MacOS host. You also have to obtain the system which as far as I can tell you can't buy anymore - you can only upgrade to.

webmobdev 6y ago

> What bothers me is that I’ve experienced an increasing number of maintainers of supposed cross platform projects simply not care about macOS anymore to the extent that they’re openly hostile towards macOS users. So blame Apple for it - why do you blame the developers? Apple wants you to forget that it is the developers that add value to a platform, and yet it charges them for the "privilege" of creating apps for their platform. And then they are openly and increasingly hostile to developers who do not conform to their business model and do not want to pay them or distribute the app through their app store - and thus they keep crippling API after API to make sure that the developers toe their line. It is because of Apple's hostile attitude to developers that they no longer want to invest (or rather waste) their time on Apple platform. Here's a real life example of an app that is now no longer viable on macOS because it doesn't suit Apple's goals - https://medium.com/tripmode/apple-started-hiding-the-traffic-of-its-own-mac-apps-9dc83c5a9c5b https://medium.com/tripmode/apple-started-hiding-the-traffic... ...

studius 6y ago
While Apple isn't right on everything, they are a business, and they have the responsibility to decide what they will provide and what they won't. If they can't change X because it will screw over critical application group Y, then developers can complain as much as they want until they have some practical way to deal with that. If they were constantly screwing over Y, where Y was different depending on the problem, they could eventually screw up all of the apps, users, and developers.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  Yes, developers on Apple platform need to be more vocal with their criticism and, if necessary, even boycott their platforms to be heard.
  - Macha 6y ago
    These are people that are not Apple developers however, they're cross platform developers, and support Mac OS so long as the burden is not too great (or simply allow others to do the work of supporting Mac OS in some cases).

syshum 6y ago

>> if you’re not interested in spending it actually supporting macOS, don't market your project as a cross platform. That is ironic, since for years I have seen "Cross Platform" to mean Win + Mac, and exclude linux users. now that is Win + Lin due to how hostile the Apple Ecosystem is to anything "not invented by apple" and you want to blame the open source devs for that...

allx64 6y ago

Perhaps they turn hostile because of macOS users. Such users have submitted sloppy this-works-for-me-style build patches to my project, which later were deemed incorrect by actual macOS experts. I had to do everything over again. Then I was rudely accused of not using cmake, when autotools perfectly support cross builds (better than cmake on Linux). It is not my problem if a purported Unix does not ship gcc or if clang cross builds are painful. Go and install gcc! If Apple were interested in being supported, they'd fix their tool chain and provide free testing infrastructure to OSS developers.

enriquto 6y ago

> What bothers me is that I’ve experienced an increasing number of maintainers of supposed cross platform projects simply not care about macOS anymore to the extent that they’re openly hostile towards macOS users This is not bothering. This is a very fortunate situation. I hope this process happens faster! What I don't understand is your point of view. It is not these sane developers who are "hostile" towards users. It is Apple who is callously hostile towards users and developers. By degrading the macOS experience, these developers are making the world a better place.

mannykannot 6y ago

"Cross-platform" is not a promise that it will work on every platform, and saying that to be cross-platform without that including MacOS is "hostile towards MacOS users" is unreasonable. The most you can reasonably hope for, in something you can get for free, is that if it says it works on a given platform, then it is reasonably functional there.

Klonoar 6y ago

You know, I thought I was the only one who felt this way - but it is really annoying. I help out on an open source emulator/game project and wound up becoming the de-facto "Mac guy". I don't mind it, but I do find myself annoyed with the people who deride the platform for not being either Windows or Linux.