5 ms·

I would argue there hasn't been enough cooling. My mother has been having a vicious political argument with my aunts for the better part of a year. Created fam

by mjfl 6y ago

I would argue there hasn't been enough cooling. My mother has been having a vicious political argument with my aunts for the better part of a year. Created familial rifts that probably wouldn't have happened without social media.

divbzero 6y ago
Sadly, I suspect this is not an isolated phenomenon. I’ve increasingly encountered anecdotes of political division souring personal relationships. I wonder if there are systematic surveys or studies of whether this perceived trend is real.
- Dig1t 6y ago
  An interesting corollary of this, I think, is that it creates bubbles of people who all think the same and agree with each other. Since it causes many people to cut people with whom they disagree with out of their life. These people see the people outside their bubble (their neighbors, friends and family) as “other”. It’s so divisive, it’s causing everyone to hate each other as nobody sees common cause with their own countrymen. It’s very sad, I hope we figure it out.
  - concordDance 6y ago
    They also end up with a very different view on reality due to being exposed to different facts and the same facts with different framing. Filter bubbles be strong.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      In the current climate, there is clearly one portion of the population rejecting reality, even though there’s plenty of available information. It has nothing to do with bubbles, it’s people actively deciding to delude themselves.
      - Veen 6y ago
        > there is clearly one portion of the population rejecting reality, even though there’s plenty of available information That's exactly what the world looks like to a person living in a filter bubble.
        lotsofpulp 6y ago
        I know. The useful distinction for a filter bubble would be for when a person is exposed only to a small set of ideas, such as “big government, subsidized everything” is the best way, or “small government, privatized everything” is the best way”. Or “so and so method of education is the best way”, things that don’t have relatively definitive answers, based on reasonable logic and standards of evidence. Using filter bubbles to talk about people that think the earth is 6,000 years old, it’s flat, the US government is run by a cabal pedophiles, vaccines are harmful, the US election results are false, etc is not a fruitful endeavor.
        throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        If you only encounter "other" ideas in a context where they are derided, mocked and otherwise not taken seriously that's still a pretty damn airtight filter bubble.
        watwut 6y ago
        There should be however space for saying that a group of people or ideology is simply wrong on some points. We should not be force to pretend that all ideologies, values systems and theories are equal or right. Or honest.
        Dig1t 6y ago
        Agreed you shouldn’t have to agree with anyone you don’t actually agree with, but also tolerance (for _all_ people) is important. We should make an honest attempt to understand WHY these people feel the way they do, and try to address the underlying concerns and fears that motivate them. And if it’s not possible to do that, at least talking about them like they’re not all patently evil would be helpful in building better relationships with our neighbors.
reillyse 6y ago
People have been falling out with their families since the dawn of time.
theshrike79 6y ago
Let me guess, two-party system? It tends to polarise people into an us-vs them mentality. In actual democracies with a half-dozen actual viable options or more, we don't tend to get that heated with politics in general.
- cafard 6y ago
  Really? I have a hard time coming up with important examples. Germany 1870-1932 had many parties with substantial representation, but how civil was it, particularly after 1918? Mark Twain's essay "Stirring Times in Austria" gives a picture of a multi-party parliament in a nervous breakdown. George Dangerfield's The Strange Death of Liberal England shows the UK ca. 1910 with two large parties, Liberal and Conservative, and two unignorable smaller ones, Labor and the Irish caucus; it was not pretty. At this point, does any major European country have more than two viable parties or coalitions? Will the German Greens ever get a Cabinet seat outside a coalition with the Social Democrats? Will the UK Liberal Democrats ever get a Cabinet seat except in coalition?
  - watwut 6y ago
    Germany 1870 was not democracy. Germany was democracy in between 1918-1932 and it was forced to become one by their own enemies. The incivility after 1918 was result of loosing war, result of anti-monarchy revolution, result of communist attempt for revolution and so on. It also had to do with rejection of democracy on principle. It had less to do with multiple parties existing or lack of two party system.
  - yatac42 6y ago
    > At this point, does any major European country have more than two viable parties or coalitions? If we look at the coalitions that have happened at the national level in this century, we have: * Social Democrats + Greens * Conservatives + Social Democrats (like, a lot) * Conservatives + Liberals So that's three different coalitions that have actually happened in the last 20 years. Admittedly three is not a lot more than two, but it is more (and we're talking about a time frame that only includes 5 national elections and only about actual coalitions, not potentially viable ones). And if you look at state governments as well, there are actually a lot more combinations that seem to work. > Will the German Greens ever get a Cabinet seat outside a coalition with the Social Democrats? Almost certainly. At the state level they already have. In one case they're even the majority with the conservatives being the minority partner in the coalition. At the national level they almost did in 2017. Negotiations between the conservatives, the greens and the liberals failed because the liberals backed out and the greens + conservatives didn't have a majority on their own - they would have been ready to go otherwise. It is entirely possible, even likely, that we will see a conservative-green coalition after this year's elections.
matwood 6y ago
> Created familial rifts that probably wouldn't have happened without social media. It's definitely part of it, but not the only reason. I know my family had plenty of familial rifts pre-social media.

by mjfl 6y ago

divbzero 6y ago

Sadly, I suspect this is not an isolated phenomenon. I’ve increasingly encountered anecdotes of political division souring personal relationships. I wonder if there are systematic surveys or studies of whether this perceived trend is real.

Dig1t 6y ago
An interesting corollary of this, I think, is that it creates bubbles of people who all think the same and agree with each other. Since it causes many people to cut people with whom they disagree with out of their life. These people see the people outside their bubble (their neighbors, friends and family) as “other”. It’s so divisive, it’s causing everyone to hate each other as nobody sees common cause with their own countrymen. It’s very sad, I hope we figure it out.
- concordDance 6y ago
  They also end up with a very different view on reality due to being exposed to different facts and the same facts with different framing. Filter bubbles be strong.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    In the current climate, there is clearly one portion of the population rejecting reality, even though there’s plenty of available information. It has nothing to do with bubbles, it’s people actively deciding to delude themselves.
    - Veen 6y ago
      > there is clearly one portion of the population rejecting reality, even though there’s plenty of available information That's exactly what the world looks like to a person living in a filter bubble.
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        I know. The useful distinction for a filter bubble would be for when a person is exposed only to a small set of ideas, such as “big government, subsidized everything” is the best way, or “small government, privatized everything” is the best way”. Or “so and so method of education is the best way”, things that don’t have relatively definitive answers, based on reasonable logic and standards of evidence. Using filter bubbles to talk about people that think the earth is 6,000 years old, it’s flat, the US government is run by a cabal pedophiles, vaccines are harmful, the US election results are false, etc is not a fruitful endeavor.
        throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        If you only encounter "other" ideas in a context where they are derided, mocked and otherwise not taken seriously that's still a pretty damn airtight filter bubble.
        watwut 6y ago
        There should be however space for saying that a group of people or ideology is simply wrong on some points. We should not be force to pretend that all ideologies, values systems and theories are equal or right. Or honest.
        Dig1t 6y ago
        Agreed you shouldn’t have to agree with anyone you don’t actually agree with, but also tolerance (for _all_ people) is important. We should make an honest attempt to understand WHY these people feel the way they do, and try to address the underlying concerns and fears that motivate them. And if it’s not possible to do that, at least talking about them like they’re not all patently evil would be helpful in building better relationships with our neighbors.

reillyse 6y ago

People have been falling out with their families since the dawn of time.

theshrike79 6y ago

Let me guess, two-party system? It tends to polarise people into an us-vs them mentality. In actual democracies with a half-dozen actual viable options or more, we don't tend to get that heated with politics in general.

cafard 6y ago
Really? I have a hard time coming up with important examples. Germany 1870-1932 had many parties with substantial representation, but how civil was it, particularly after 1918? Mark Twain's essay "Stirring Times in Austria" gives a picture of a multi-party parliament in a nervous breakdown. George Dangerfield's The Strange Death of Liberal England shows the UK ca. 1910 with two large parties, Liberal and Conservative, and two unignorable smaller ones, Labor and the Irish caucus; it was not pretty. At this point, does any major European country have more than two viable parties or coalitions? Will the German Greens ever get a Cabinet seat outside a coalition with the Social Democrats? Will the UK Liberal Democrats ever get a Cabinet seat except in coalition?
- watwut 6y ago
  Germany 1870 was not democracy. Germany was democracy in between 1918-1932 and it was forced to become one by their own enemies. The incivility after 1918 was result of loosing war, result of anti-monarchy revolution, result of communist attempt for revolution and so on. It also had to do with rejection of democracy on principle. It had less to do with multiple parties existing or lack of two party system.
- yatac42 6y ago
  > At this point, does any major European country have more than two viable parties or coalitions? If we look at the coalitions that have happened at the national level in this century, we have: * Social Democrats + Greens * Conservatives + Social Democrats (like, a lot) * Conservatives + Liberals So that's three different coalitions that have actually happened in the last 20 years. Admittedly three is not a lot more than two, but it is more (and we're talking about a time frame that only includes 5 national elections and only about actual coalitions, not potentially viable ones). And if you look at state governments as well, there are actually a lot more combinations that seem to work. > Will the German Greens ever get a Cabinet seat outside a coalition with the Social Democrats? Almost certainly. At the state level they already have. In one case they're even the majority with the conservatives being the minority partner in the coalition. At the national level they almost did in 2017. Negotiations between the conservatives, the greens and the liberals failed because the liberals backed out and the greens + conservatives didn't have a majority on their own - they would have been ready to go otherwise. It is entirely possible, even likely, that we will see a conservative-green coalition after this year's elections.

matwood 6y ago

> Created familial rifts that probably wouldn't have happened without social media. It's definitely part of it, but not the only reason. I know my family had plenty of familial rifts pre-social media.