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It still puzzles me to this day why developers are happy to develop for Apple products. If the red tape alone doesn't make it a deal breaker the % cut certainly

It still puzzles me to this day why developers are happy to develop for Apple products. If the red tape alone doesn't make it a deal breaker the % cut certainly should.

random5634 6y ago
Because apple provides a tradeoff - a VERY trusted ecosystem that folks are happy to spend big money in knowing they are pretty safe (no impossible to cancel subscriptions). The ecosystem as well is pretty aggressively updated - even old devices (by most company standards) remain supported AND updated - so your development target is not terrible. So in short - you can make good to great money on the apple ecosystem as revenue per install is higher and ecosystem support costs lower.
- PurpleFoxy 6y ago
  3rd parties kind of shot themselves in the foot by abusing the fuck out of users in every way possible and now things have swung in the other direction where users all flock to marketplaces that prevent the abuse even if sellers get charged a huge fee.
  - oefrha 6y ago
    Yes. On the one hand, having NE entitlements restricted to MAS and the associated pain of MAS distribution is real. On the other hand, a few years ago, I once installed some garbage corporate VPN software on a Windows machine of mine so that a family member could connect to their office to resolve an urgent matter. I later realized it was impossible to uninstall. It seemed to have somehow managed to embed itself deep into the network stack initiation process, and since you can’t delete an open file on Windows, it was impossible to remove. I booted into the Windows equivalent of recovery mode and forcefully removed the files from a DOS prompt, but then the whole network stack was borked. Not knowing which registry keys to edit I had to reinstall the damn OS. With that experience in mind, I’d really appreciate the peace of mind of knowing deeply system-altering software can be cleanly removed.
  - random5634 6y ago
    I had this experience a few times. I used to buy outside the standard marketplaces (was an early cydia user as well). Reality - if they can scam you they will. 1) An annual subscription with no renewal notice AND that you couldn't cancel out of the 7 day period before renewal. So because I subscribed outside the app store I was screwed. After paying another $150 for a year I didn't want the service for, spending time arguing, I had to set a calendar invite for a year away to myself, then find out you can only cancel by CALLING them at a UK number! Of course it was acres of time being on hold. I ended up just switching off that credit card and sending them an email saying I was canceling. They still send me past due bills saying my card was declined yadda yadda. Contrast that with apple. You get an alert IN ADVANCE that you have subscriptions coming up. If you uninstall an app with a related subscription it asks if you want to cancel subscription PROACTIVELY etc. And you seem to get benefits via family sharing on subscriptions that automatically flow to family members without having to share passwords which is nice. So yeah, subscriptions (as just one example) I go through app store if at all possible. And of course, this extends to everything. On my windows machine we also have that corp VPN stuff -> which they then somehow use as a marketing channel to popup notifications around security etc that I need to buy or get anti-virus etc. I'm sure there are settings to turn this stuff off, but what a pain. My parents it is even worse. On windows all the ads and toolbars that are "helpfully" installed I am convinced are 99% adware / malware. For some reason my parents (elderly) have no problems with their ipad by contrast.
ogre_codes 6y ago
What red tape? Your app is signed and that's it. Not App Store review, just signed by a bot. The rest is all just discussing things like copy protection, where to host, etc.
- judge2020 6y ago
  I think OP is including iOS in their scentiment.
- asiando 6y ago
  Plus signing up and paying for a developer ID. While it’s easy to minimize all of this, it’s still red tape and it’s extra work one has to do.
  - jbverschoor 6y ago
    You sign up for github, hackernews etc too. It's a little bit of extra work, which is in your build scripts anyway. And it protects against some attacks. To me it just sounds like bitching against Apple.. some old, same old
    - jcelerier 6y ago
      > You sign up for github, hackernews etc too. but it doesn't cost a cent
      - jbverschoor 6y ago
        So does a domain name, so did an SSL certificate, so does any payment provider, so do many many other things. Heck.. so is facebook, so is whatsapp. When it's about those "we" like to complain that there should be a paid version instead of a free version. It's just a load of bs. The article is not even about distributing free applications. It's about paid applications.
        jcelerier 6y ago
apozem 6y ago
Simple. Apple users spend more [1]. Not to say you can’t make money on Windows, Linux or Android, obviously there are thousands of successful software businesses on those platforms. It’s just that iOS and Mac users really don’t mind spending. Apple users also seem to appreciate (and pay for) boutique indie apps. As a Mac user, I paid $25 for Byword just because it was a really nice Markdown editor. That appetite for quality apps gives indies a great market opportunity. Edit: oh yeah, and a lot of devs use macOS so why wouldn’t they want great apps on the platform they use? [1]: https://www.appannie.com/en/insights/market-data/mobile-hit-new-milestones-in-q1-2019/ https://www.appannie.com/en/insights/market-data/mobile-hit-...
- tzfld 6y ago
  May be if I would like 'boutique indie apps' I wouldn't chose a platform so restrictive to indie developers.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    Developers can switch to a different platform, but the problem is that their customers won't switch. The customers for boutique indie apps simply do not exist on Linux. And they don't exist on Windows to the extent that they exist on the Mac. The Mac has always been by far the best platform to find customers for boutique indie apps, long before Mac code signing existed, and that equation hasn't changed even though Apple is now getting worse and locking down the Mac. In general, I find the idea strange that developers can simply avoid being dependent on Apple. Look at two of the largest corporations in the world: Google and Facebook. They are themselves platforms. Google has its own mobile OS, Android. And yet... these companies still have big problems with Apple. They still need iOS apps, they still have to go through App Store review, etc. The world is such that it's extremely difficult for anyone to avoid being dependent in some way on the BigCos. If you think the web is independent, just consider Flash-based web sites. Not so independent anymore, eh? Turns out Google and Apple also control the web browsers. Consider physical product producers and Amazon. And look at how Parler was simultaneously deplatformed by everyone. These BigCos are the elephants in the room, you can't ignore them.
pjmlp 6y ago
Because Apple, alongside Google and Microsoft platforms, provide a whole stack experience in tooling and SDKs, instead of endless configurations of home made distributions, and people on those platforms usually pay for their apps, even when taking piracy into account.
ziaddotcom 6y ago
Pat Sayjak, I'd like to solve the puzzle. "ios is two thirds of the hundred billion dollar mobile app market" https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/#1 https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/#1
nicky0 6y ago
For me, it's simple. On balance, it's a great platform to develop for, and I make a good living from it doing work I enjoy. I also appreciate the community of Mac users that use my apps.
ajconway 6y ago
Because Apple users have done nothing wrong and deserve nice software too.
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  No one deserves nice software. If it is extra work for devs to build software for your platform, you should pay appropriately. Apple users tend to do so, so all is well, when they eventually devolve into being like the majority of the population (freewheelers who whine and moan when apps hampered by Apple's horrible anti-developer practices don't work well) then devs will stop developing for them
p0nce 6y ago
The users are there and are wanting good software that they are even willing to pay for! Jumping through hoops is just a price to pay for it. I also like servicing demanding users ; Apple users demand software that works full stop.
webmobdev 6y ago
They are short-sighted. They don't realize that they are the ones adding value to Apple's platform, and they shouldn't have to pay Apple to do so! With its app store, Apple acts like a corrupt bureaucrat middleman between developers and users, and demands an unnecessary bribe from both to distribute and use the app. It reduces profit for the developers and increases cost for their clients.
- bigbizisverywyz 6y ago
  I don't think they are short-sighted. I think they realise that the app store gives them such a leg up in the process of packaging, distributing, managing updates, helping with discoverability, ensuring platform compatibility and (optionally) taking payment of their software that they easily see the value advantage to going on the app store other than doing all that themselves. Managing all of that yourself would leave less time for development, would cost a lot more than the app store fees & cut and would be in itself an insurmountable barrier to many who might not even bother (particularly small freeware apps). On the whole I'd say the app store benefits the majority of developers, particularly smaller ones. The companies that do chafe at the bit though are the larger ones for whom all of that infrastructure is already taken care of, and it's no barrier for them. They seem to resent Apple's cut which would probably explain the Fortnite fracas.
  - webmobdev 6y ago
    Everything you've described is exactly the things they are short-sighted about - if you need to grow your business these are the things you need control and oversight over, and need to master. Betting your business on one horse (whose feet are tied) is just plain stupid.
- jaimex2 6y ago
  This sums up my thoughts quite well. Even with the boutique money there we usually see someone's sob story about Apple pulling their app on a whim on HN quite often.
bromuro 6y ago
I love programming on Apple platforms, they are beautiful devices and the UX is the best.
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  I honestly think it's some of the worst UI on planet Earth. Every time I use one of these it's impossible to do what I want to do. Try signing out of one icloud account on a Mac laptop and signing into a different one. You need to open several apps, dig through various random disconnected menu options, click past several warnings, and wait a long long time sometimes (often with no visual feedback that the task you started is done). And I feel like most things in Apple ecosystem are like this. iOS doesn't even expose a file system to the users, so so so many of my family members on iOS have no idea where to go once they download a document or audio file or video file to then play it back. The worst part about this is that there is a Files app, but you can't save files you download to any folder that app exposes. Why? Who knows?? Sorry for getting heated, but I've just had such frustrating experiences with the platform. Maybe someone can give some examples of the amazing UX they have then I'll see more clearly why people like it. My instant reaction is to remember all my wasted time trying to do simple tasks with it

It still puzzles me to this day why developers are happy to develop for Apple products. If the red tape alone doesn't make it a deal breaker the % cut certainly should.

random5634 6y ago

Because apple provides a tradeoff - a VERY trusted ecosystem that folks are happy to spend big money in knowing they are pretty safe (no impossible to cancel subscriptions). The ecosystem as well is pretty aggressively updated - even old devices (by most company standards) remain supported AND updated - so your development target is not terrible. So in short - you can make good to great money on the apple ecosystem as revenue per install is higher and ecosystem support costs lower.

PurpleFoxy 6y ago
3rd parties kind of shot themselves in the foot by abusing the fuck out of users in every way possible and now things have swung in the other direction where users all flock to marketplaces that prevent the abuse even if sellers get charged a huge fee.
- oefrha 6y ago
  Yes. On the one hand, having NE entitlements restricted to MAS and the associated pain of MAS distribution is real. On the other hand, a few years ago, I once installed some garbage corporate VPN software on a Windows machine of mine so that a family member could connect to their office to resolve an urgent matter. I later realized it was impossible to uninstall. It seemed to have somehow managed to embed itself deep into the network stack initiation process, and since you can’t delete an open file on Windows, it was impossible to remove. I booted into the Windows equivalent of recovery mode and forcefully removed the files from a DOS prompt, but then the whole network stack was borked. Not knowing which registry keys to edit I had to reinstall the damn OS. With that experience in mind, I’d really appreciate the peace of mind of knowing deeply system-altering software can be cleanly removed.
- random5634 6y ago
  I had this experience a few times. I used to buy outside the standard marketplaces (was an early cydia user as well). Reality - if they can scam you they will. 1) An annual subscription with no renewal notice AND that you couldn't cancel out of the 7 day period before renewal. So because I subscribed outside the app store I was screwed. After paying another $150 for a year I didn't want the service for, spending time arguing, I had to set a calendar invite for a year away to myself, then find out you can only cancel by CALLING them at a UK number! Of course it was acres of time being on hold. I ended up just switching off that credit card and sending them an email saying I was canceling. They still send me past due bills saying my card was declined yadda yadda. Contrast that with apple. You get an alert IN ADVANCE that you have subscriptions coming up. If you uninstall an app with a related subscription it asks if you want to cancel subscription PROACTIVELY etc. And you seem to get benefits via family sharing on subscriptions that automatically flow to family members without having to share passwords which is nice. So yeah, subscriptions (as just one example) I go through app store if at all possible. And of course, this extends to everything. On my windows machine we also have that corp VPN stuff -> which they then somehow use as a marketing channel to popup notifications around security etc that I need to buy or get anti-virus etc. I'm sure there are settings to turn this stuff off, but what a pain. My parents it is even worse. On windows all the ads and toolbars that are "helpfully" installed I am convinced are 99% adware / malware. For some reason my parents (elderly) have no problems with their ipad by contrast.

ogre_codes 6y ago

What red tape? Your app is signed and that's it. Not App Store review, just signed by a bot. The rest is all just discussing things like copy protection, where to host, etc.

judge2020 6y ago
I think OP is including iOS in their scentiment.
asiando 6y ago
Plus signing up and paying for a developer ID. While it’s easy to minimize all of this, it’s still red tape and it’s extra work one has to do.
- jbverschoor 6y ago
  You sign up for github, hackernews etc too. It's a little bit of extra work, which is in your build scripts anyway. And it protects against some attacks. To me it just sounds like bitching against Apple.. some old, same old
  - jcelerier 6y ago
    > You sign up for github, hackernews etc too. but it doesn't cost a cent
    - jbverschoor 6y ago
      So does a domain name, so did an SSL certificate, so does any payment provider, so do many many other things. Heck.. so is facebook, so is whatsapp. When it's about those "we" like to complain that there should be a paid version instead of a free version. It's just a load of bs. The article is not even about distributing free applications. It's about paid applications.
      - jcelerier 6y ago

apozem 6y ago

Simple. Apple users spend more [1]. Not to say you can’t make money on Windows, Linux or Android, obviously there are thousands of successful software businesses on those platforms. It’s just that iOS and Mac users really don’t mind spending. Apple users also seem to appreciate (and pay for) boutique indie apps. As a Mac user, I paid $25 for Byword just because it was a really nice Markdown editor. That appetite for quality apps gives indies a great market opportunity. Edit: oh yeah, and a lot of devs use macOS so why wouldn’t they want great apps on the platform they use? [1]: https://www.appannie.com/en/insights/market-data/mobile-hit-new-milestones-in-q1-2019/ https://www.appannie.com/en/insights/market-data/mobile-hit-...

tzfld 6y ago
May be if I would like 'boutique indie apps' I wouldn't chose a platform so restrictive to indie developers.
- _qulr 6y ago
  Developers can switch to a different platform, but the problem is that their customers won't switch. The customers for boutique indie apps simply do not exist on Linux. And they don't exist on Windows to the extent that they exist on the Mac. The Mac has always been by far the best platform to find customers for boutique indie apps, long before Mac code signing existed, and that equation hasn't changed even though Apple is now getting worse and locking down the Mac. In general, I find the idea strange that developers can simply avoid being dependent on Apple. Look at two of the largest corporations in the world: Google and Facebook. They are themselves platforms. Google has its own mobile OS, Android. And yet... these companies still have big problems with Apple. They still need iOS apps, they still have to go through App Store review, etc. The world is such that it's extremely difficult for anyone to avoid being dependent in some way on the BigCos. If you think the web is independent, just consider Flash-based web sites. Not so independent anymore, eh? Turns out Google and Apple also control the web browsers. Consider physical product producers and Amazon. And look at how Parler was simultaneously deplatformed by everyone. These BigCos are the elephants in the room, you can't ignore them.

pjmlp 6y ago

Because Apple, alongside Google and Microsoft platforms, provide a whole stack experience in tooling and SDKs, instead of endless configurations of home made distributions, and people on those platforms usually pay for their apps, even when taking piracy into account.

ziaddotcom 6y ago

Pat Sayjak, I'd like to solve the puzzle. "ios is two thirds of the hundred billion dollar mobile app market" https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/#1 https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/#1

nicky0 6y ago

For me, it's simple. On balance, it's a great platform to develop for, and I make a good living from it doing work I enjoy. I also appreciate the community of Mac users that use my apps.

ajconway 6y ago

Because Apple users have done nothing wrong and deserve nice software too.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago
No one deserves nice software. If it is extra work for devs to build software for your platform, you should pay appropriately. Apple users tend to do so, so all is well, when they eventually devolve into being like the majority of the population (freewheelers who whine and moan when apps hampered by Apple's horrible anti-developer practices don't work well) then devs will stop developing for them

p0nce 6y ago

The users are there and are wanting good software that they are even willing to pay for! Jumping through hoops is just a price to pay for it. I also like servicing demanding users ; Apple users demand software that works full stop.

webmobdev 6y ago

They are short-sighted. They don't realize that they are the ones adding value to Apple's platform, and they shouldn't have to pay Apple to do so! With its app store, Apple acts like a corrupt bureaucrat middleman between developers and users, and demands an unnecessary bribe from both to distribute and use the app. It reduces profit for the developers and increases cost for their clients.

bigbizisverywyz 6y ago
I don't think they are short-sighted. I think they realise that the app store gives them such a leg up in the process of packaging, distributing, managing updates, helping with discoverability, ensuring platform compatibility and (optionally) taking payment of their software that they easily see the value advantage to going on the app store other than doing all that themselves. Managing all of that yourself would leave less time for development, would cost a lot more than the app store fees & cut and would be in itself an insurmountable barrier to many who might not even bother (particularly small freeware apps). On the whole I'd say the app store benefits the majority of developers, particularly smaller ones. The companies that do chafe at the bit though are the larger ones for whom all of that infrastructure is already taken care of, and it's no barrier for them. They seem to resent Apple's cut which would probably explain the Fortnite fracas.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  Everything you've described is exactly the things they are short-sighted about - if you need to grow your business these are the things you need control and oversight over, and need to master. Betting your business on one horse (whose feet are tied) is just plain stupid.
jaimex2 6y ago
This sums up my thoughts quite well. Even with the boutique money there we usually see someone's sob story about Apple pulling their app on a whim on HN quite often.

bromuro 6y ago

I love programming on Apple platforms, they are beautiful devices and the UX is the best.

notsureaboutpg 6y ago
I honestly think it's some of the worst UI on planet Earth. Every time I use one of these it's impossible to do what I want to do. Try signing out of one icloud account on a Mac laptop and signing into a different one. You need to open several apps, dig through various random disconnected menu options, click past several warnings, and wait a long long time sometimes (often with no visual feedback that the task you started is done). And I feel like most things in Apple ecosystem are like this. iOS doesn't even expose a file system to the users, so so so many of my family members on iOS have no idea where to go once they download a document or audio file or video file to then play it back. The worst part about this is that there is a Files app, but you can't save files you download to any folder that app exposes. Why? Who knows?? Sorry for getting heated, but I've just had such frustrating experiences with the platform. Maybe someone can give some examples of the amazing UX they have then I'll see more clearly why people like it. My instant reaction is to remember all my wasted time trying to do simple tasks with it