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Followed by this: 'Handshake is “is effectively a decentralized domain name server,” Roquerre said.' -- thus implying that DNS is NOT decentralized? The article

Followed by this: 'Handshake is “is effectively a decentralized domain name server,” Roquerre said.' -- thus implying that DNS is NOT decentralized? The article is pretty bad. For his sake, I hope they are taking his quotes out of context. Because I had a quick look at https://www.namebase.io/ https://www.namebase.io/ -- and it does look interesting. It appears that they have decentralized the REGISTRY by putting it on the "Handshake" blockchain. Can I configure my resolver to use this "Handshake" blockchain?

thesuitonym 6y ago
This got me, too. >a privacy-focused, cloud-based domain name service resolver which converts IP addresses into domain names. Except for being privacy focused, this literally describes every domain name service in the Internet.
- rpdillon 6y ago
  I notice that sentence too. Don't DNS servers convert domain names into IP addresses?
  - jaywalk 6y ago
    Technically they do both, but domain to IP is the vastly more common usage.
  - thesuitonym 6y ago
    I think it's just answering the question in reverse. It converts an IP to a domain name in that you don't need to know the IP with DNS.
dwiel 6y ago
This is a case where I find Vitalik's distinction between different kinds of decentralization useful. [1] Roquerre is talking about political or logical decentralization whereas you are talking about architectural decentralization. [1] https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274 https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentrali...
emacdona 6y ago
But now that I think about it, the registry IS already decentralized. IE: .com is managed by an organization separate from .org. And the whole reason for "renting" from .com is because .com owns the space. If you "buy" a TLD on the Handshake blockchain, do you lose the ability to rescind delegations under that TLD once people have "bought" them?
- emacdona 6y ago
  Maybe the value is that b/c it's on the blockchain, you can see to which IP address a name referred to at ANY point in its (the name's) history?
- angio 6y ago
  The creation of new root TLD is decentralized, you can request a new one and then a bidding process for it starts where everyone can bid for it.
  - emacdona 6y ago
    But you can buy a new TLD in the DNS, right? Granted, for more money and pending approval. How is the TLD you get from Handshake different? You still control it, right? And you have the power to revoke sub delegations within it, right? That's what's confusing me... the article seemed to indicate that by switching to Handshake, you won't get your name revoked ever again. But the detail that seems to have been left out is "... if you buy a Handshake TLD, as opposed to 'renting' space from a Handshake TLD holder".
    - troquerre 6y ago
      ICANN is expected to re-open TLD registrations in 2-3 years but you can't actually buy a new TLD in the traditional system at the moment. Once the registrations open up, there's a $180k application fee (that's not a registration fee, you pay that whether you win the TLD or not) on top of the registration fee which can cost millions. Furthermore, ownership of the TLD is delegate by ICANN, which is a central authority as opposed to ownership of names on Handshake which are controlled by private keys that you control.
conradev 6y ago
Yes! There are DNS bridges that read from Handshake’s registry that you can use, like NextDNS: https://www.namebase.io/blog/how-to-access-handshake-domains/ https://www.namebase.io/blog/how-to-access-handshake-domains...
lazzlazzlazz 6y ago
DNS is not decentralized in the sense that matters for censorship, which is the most important sense in this discussion. I don't know anyone who believes DNS is suitably decentralized to resist censorship.
- emacdona 6y ago
  Okay, but how does Handshake solve that problem? It seems like the answer is "everyone buys their own TLD", right? That works great until the only names that are left are all too long to remember. And if you buy space from someone else's TLD, well... you've just given someone the power to censor you. Or am I missing something here?
  - lazzlazzlazz 6y ago
    > That works great until the only names that are left are all too long to remember. Do you really believe this is a serious problem? I don't think it is by any stretch of the imagination. --- > It seems like the answer is "everyone buys their own TLD", right? Yeah, why not? The conceptual distinction between a domain and a TLD isn't necessary. From the Namebase docs: > For instance, if you own "nakamoto" on Handshake, you can use "nakamoto" as a domain itself. In that case, you would point "nakamoto" to your website and visit it at http://nakamoto/ http://nakamoto/ in your browser. You can also use "nakamoto" as a TLD and issue your own subdomains. In that case you can create "satoshi.nakamoto" and visit it at http://satoshi.nakamoto http://satoshi.nakamoto in your browser. A Handshake name can be used as both a domain name directly and as a TLD at the same time. --- > And if you buy space from someone else's TLD, well... you've just given someone the power to censor you. Maybe? Buying from someone else's TLD isn't the point of Handshake, for the reasons I mentioned above. But if you wanted to buy a subdomain for some reason, and still wanted it to be uncensorable, you should buy one from someone who revokes their censorship capabilities programmatically. And that point is the big picture: reasoning about transparent code for very important things gives you a level of control you can't obtain through trusting people.
  - troquerre 6y ago
    There are two sides of censorship-resistance that are important when it comes to DNS. Censorship-resistance/seizure-resistance for owners and censorship-resistance for consumers. For owners, it's important that their domain names can't be taken down or seized from them. Sci-Hub has dealt with this issue numerous times and has had to register a pool of domain names to try too counteract this issue before getting their Handshake name. Domain registrars can seize domain names and there isn't much recourse for the owners — it doesn't even need to be for a good reason[1]. On Handshake, ownership is controlled by your wallet's private key (similar to owning Bitcoin). As long as you control your private key no one can take your name from you. For consumers, it's important that you can 1) access the domain name and 2) trust that the DNS records you're seeing are authentic. Handshake is a distributed network so as long as you can connect to a single node you can access it. This mechanic is what gives other distributed networks like Bitcoin and BitTorrent their strength. Furthermore, you can verify the authenticity of the records since each DNS update is reflected on the blockchain similar to how you can verify transactions on Bitcoin. [1] https://www.izoologic.com/2018/12/20/zoho-domain-taken-mistake/ https://www.izoologic.com/2018/12/20/zoho-domain-taken-mista...
t0mbstone 6y ago
DNS isn't completely "decentralized" because it still relies on root name servers, which are controlled by ICANN.
- tialaramex 6y ago
  Only the L root is controlled by ICANN A and J are controlled by Verisign (a US public company) B and D by different US universities C by Cogent (another US public company) E by NASA F by Internet Systems Consortium (an American not-for-profit) G by the US Department of Defense H by the US Army I by Netnod (a Swedish non-profit) K by RIPE (the European RIR) and finally M by WIDE (a project of several Japanese universities)
  - rasengan 6y ago
    ... which are delegated authority by ICANN [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_root_zone#Management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_root_zone#Management
cratermoon 6y ago
Ooof. blockchain https://xkcd.com/2267/ https://xkcd.com/2267/ https://xkcd.com/2030/ https://xkcd.com/2030/

thesuitonym 6y ago

This got me, too. >a privacy-focused, cloud-based domain name service resolver which converts IP addresses into domain names. Except for being privacy focused, this literally describes every domain name service in the Internet.

rpdillon 6y ago
I notice that sentence too. Don't DNS servers convert domain names into IP addresses?
- jaywalk 6y ago
  Technically they do both, but domain to IP is the vastly more common usage.
- thesuitonym 6y ago
  I think it's just answering the question in reverse. It converts an IP to a domain name in that you don't need to know the IP with DNS.

dwiel 6y ago

This is a case where I find Vitalik's distinction between different kinds of decentralization useful. [1] Roquerre is talking about political or logical decentralization whereas you are talking about architectural decentralization. [1] https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274 https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentrali...

emacdona 6y ago

But now that I think about it, the registry IS already decentralized. IE: .com is managed by an organization separate from .org. And the whole reason for "renting" from .com is because .com owns the space. If you "buy" a TLD on the Handshake blockchain, do you lose the ability to rescind delegations under that TLD once people have "bought" them?

emacdona 6y ago
Maybe the value is that b/c it's on the blockchain, you can see to which IP address a name referred to at ANY point in its (the name's) history?
angio 6y ago
The creation of new root TLD is decentralized, you can request a new one and then a bidding process for it starts where everyone can bid for it.
- emacdona 6y ago
  But you can buy a new TLD in the DNS, right? Granted, for more money and pending approval. How is the TLD you get from Handshake different? You still control it, right? And you have the power to revoke sub delegations within it, right? That's what's confusing me... the article seemed to indicate that by switching to Handshake, you won't get your name revoked ever again. But the detail that seems to have been left out is "... if you buy a Handshake TLD, as opposed to 'renting' space from a Handshake TLD holder".
  - troquerre 6y ago
    ICANN is expected to re-open TLD registrations in 2-3 years but you can't actually buy a new TLD in the traditional system at the moment. Once the registrations open up, there's a $180k application fee (that's not a registration fee, you pay that whether you win the TLD or not) on top of the registration fee which can cost millions. Furthermore, ownership of the TLD is delegate by ICANN, which is a central authority as opposed to ownership of names on Handshake which are controlled by private keys that you control.

conradev 6y ago

Yes! There are DNS bridges that read from Handshake’s registry that you can use, like NextDNS: https://www.namebase.io/blog/how-to-access-handshake-domains/ https://www.namebase.io/blog/how-to-access-handshake-domains...

lazzlazzlazz 6y ago

DNS is not decentralized in the sense that matters for censorship, which is the most important sense in this discussion. I don't know anyone who believes DNS is suitably decentralized to resist censorship.

emacdona 6y ago
Okay, but how does Handshake solve that problem? It seems like the answer is "everyone buys their own TLD", right? That works great until the only names that are left are all too long to remember. And if you buy space from someone else's TLD, well... you've just given someone the power to censor you. Or am I missing something here?
- lazzlazzlazz 6y ago
  > That works great until the only names that are left are all too long to remember. Do you really believe this is a serious problem? I don't think it is by any stretch of the imagination. --- > It seems like the answer is "everyone buys their own TLD", right? Yeah, why not? The conceptual distinction between a domain and a TLD isn't necessary. From the Namebase docs: > For instance, if you own "nakamoto" on Handshake, you can use "nakamoto" as a domain itself. In that case, you would point "nakamoto" to your website and visit it at http://nakamoto/ http://nakamoto/ in your browser. You can also use "nakamoto" as a TLD and issue your own subdomains. In that case you can create "satoshi.nakamoto" and visit it at http://satoshi.nakamoto http://satoshi.nakamoto in your browser. A Handshake name can be used as both a domain name directly and as a TLD at the same time. --- > And if you buy space from someone else's TLD, well... you've just given someone the power to censor you. Maybe? Buying from someone else's TLD isn't the point of Handshake, for the reasons I mentioned above. But if you wanted to buy a subdomain for some reason, and still wanted it to be uncensorable, you should buy one from someone who revokes their censorship capabilities programmatically. And that point is the big picture: reasoning about transparent code for very important things gives you a level of control you can't obtain through trusting people.
- troquerre 6y ago
  There are two sides of censorship-resistance that are important when it comes to DNS. Censorship-resistance/seizure-resistance for owners and censorship-resistance for consumers. For owners, it's important that their domain names can't be taken down or seized from them. Sci-Hub has dealt with this issue numerous times and has had to register a pool of domain names to try too counteract this issue before getting their Handshake name. Domain registrars can seize domain names and there isn't much recourse for the owners — it doesn't even need to be for a good reason[1]. On Handshake, ownership is controlled by your wallet's private key (similar to owning Bitcoin). As long as you control your private key no one can take your name from you. For consumers, it's important that you can 1) access the domain name and 2) trust that the DNS records you're seeing are authentic. Handshake is a distributed network so as long as you can connect to a single node you can access it. This mechanic is what gives other distributed networks like Bitcoin and BitTorrent their strength. Furthermore, you can verify the authenticity of the records since each DNS update is reflected on the blockchain similar to how you can verify transactions on Bitcoin. [1] https://www.izoologic.com/2018/12/20/zoho-domain-taken-mistake/ https://www.izoologic.com/2018/12/20/zoho-domain-taken-mista...

t0mbstone 6y ago

DNS isn't completely "decentralized" because it still relies on root name servers, which are controlled by ICANN.

tialaramex 6y ago
Only the L root is controlled by ICANN A and J are controlled by Verisign (a US public company) B and D by different US universities C by Cogent (another US public company) E by NASA F by Internet Systems Consortium (an American not-for-profit) G by the US Department of Defense H by the US Army I by Netnod (a Swedish non-profit) K by RIPE (the European RIR) and finally M by WIDE (a project of several Japanese universities)
- rasengan 6y ago
  ... which are delegated authority by ICANN [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_root_zone#Management https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_root_zone#Management

cratermoon 6y ago

Ooof. blockchain https://xkcd.com/2267/ https://xkcd.com/2267/ https://xkcd.com/2030/ https://xkcd.com/2030/